[15:10] Tenshi Love: Yesterday I spoke a bit about power exchange. Today, I'll speak about the topic that interests me the most
[15:10] Tenshi Love: Namely: what makes a D/s relationship work?
[15:11] Feralangel Tolsen raises her hand
[15:12] Tenshi Love: I'll open the floor for initial ideas, then I'll share what I think.
[15:13] Feralangel Tolsen: Ok. Well.. I think the ingredients are different for everyone. I think in general compatibility is hugs. That means compatibility of kinks and also style. What I mean by smiles is for instance, some subs need more affection. Like me.
[15:13] Akala Tanara: Dedication, trust and communication I would say make it work.
[15:14] Feralangel Tolsen: honest communication even when it is not easy to say or discuss.. especially then
[15:14] Kite Homewood: ...dedication, too.
[15:15] Carley Noonan: patience
[15:15] Carley Noonan: love
[15:15] Tenshi Love: You all have begun to scratch the surface here. This topic is plenty more profound than it seems.
[15:15] Carley Noonan: and respect
[15:15] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: i go with respect too
[15:16] Feralangel Tolsen: ya. I would say respect for each party as a human being that is not predicated on their role.
[15:16] Carla: yes, all very good points
[15:17] Tenshi Love: I'm going to offer what I think. It draws on my own experience as Mistress o a wonderful girl who is now not only my slave but also my significant other in SL.
[15:18] Tenshi Love: It began in the worst possible place where you could begin a D/s relationship: In Gor. At the time, I was going through an identity crisis of sorts.
[15:19] Kite Homewood: i confess i'm not so sure to be able to stand Gor related tales, Miss.. *smiles
[15:19] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: haha
[15:19] Tenshi Love: Don't worry kite.
[15:20] Tenshi Love: this submissive girl, kitten, and me, became friends quickly. We started to speak about what we were doing, in an out of context setting
[15:21] Tenshi Love: the communication grew and grew, and in a matter of months when we were both not in our respective role plays, we would spend our online time together. Once again, speaking, communicating.
[15:22] Tenshi Love: But this was not all. I provided a sounding board for her emotions and feelings about her role play. And she did the same to me.
[15:23] Tenshi Love: In a sense, this mutual communication was the opening up to us finding many things in common.
[15:24] Kite Homewood: me listens silently, but rises a finger shyly, just to ask permission to ask a question when and if Miss thinks timely.
[15:24] Tenshi Love: Circumstances brought us together, and we even role played together for a while. We however were not fitting to the stereotype of our roles in the gorean scene.
[15:25] Carla: Did you consider leaving Gor to be together?
[15:25] Tenshi Love: I digress though... Long story short, we left Gor and started to delve more deeply into our relationship, she submitted to me after much dialogue
[15:26] Tenshi Love: and three years later we are still together, happily, I must say.
[15:26] Tenshi Love: So what has kept it going?
[15:26] Carla: I saw that one coming
[15:26] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: loyalty?
[15:26] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: hot sex :)
[15:26] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: love :)
[15:26] Kite Homewood: communication....
[15:27] Carla: believe it or not a dialog daily can do it
[15:27] Tenshi Love: Bingo, kite. But not only communication. Not by far.
[15:27] Tori Petlyakov: open truthful communication
[15:28] Tenshi Love: there are three major elements, along with many minor ones, to a successful D/s relationship
[15:28] Carla: Being real
[15:28] Tenshi Love: the first one, definitely the most important one, is communication.
[15:29] Tenshi Love: The other two have been mentioned here already. They are: respect, and trust.
[15:29] Tenshi Love: CRT.
[15:29] Feralangel Tolsen raises her hand
[15:29] Tenshi Love: feral.
[15:29] Carla: When you click those are easy
[15:29] Tenshi Love: after kite's intervention
[15:30] Kite Homewood: could be interesting detailing what Miss thinking 'respect' meaning... I'd also like to know if that 'dialogue' involved voice and rl aspects, Miss.
[15:31] Feralangel Tolsen: I have something to add to the communication. I get a lot of hell because I do communicate honestly. It does not seem to be taken well sometimes, and I find it really frustrating. I feel like sometimes people are saying communicate when we agree and with things that we agree about.
[15:31] Kite Homewood: nods
[15:31] Feralangel Tolsen: But when there is an actual disagreement or an issue they do not want the communication anymore. A good sub is supposed to shut up and behave.
[15:32] Akala Tanara: If you get a lot of Hell for being honest, it could be that you're with the wrong person.
[15:32] Akala Tanara: Or maybe too brutally honest :3
[15:32] Tenshi Love: Dialogue certainly involved aspects of our real lives, though not intruding in our privacy. I oppose using voice and/or webcam, for instance. But I have been known for using voice, occasionally.
[15:32] Feralangel Tolsen: Hence my not being mistaken for a good sub.
[15:32] Kite Homewood: not so easy...
[15:33] Tenshi Love: I've always welcomed my minxy's input. Whether I agree with it or not. Because to not accept it, to only accept what I like, means that I am not accepting communication.
[15:33] Feralangel Tolsen: I communicate what I do like, what I do not like, what I will not do. I do that because I am responsible for my own emotional health. I have to live within my own self after the scene. For me it is about self car.
[15:33] Feralangel Tolsen: self care
[15:34] Kite Homewood: many Dom/mes would disagree on that, Feral, I fear
[15:35] Akala Tanara: There are a lot of bad ones out there, you know. Hehe, not every single Dom out there knows what they're doing. -nods-
[15:35] Akala Tanara: many bad subs as well.
[15:35] Kite Homewood: if Miss Tenshi permitting this digression, I'd try to tell what I learned
[15:35] Tenshi Love: go on kite.
[15:36] Kite Homewood: well.. aside the fact that 'negotiating' could irritate many, and that some do consider such 'subs' plainly unworthy, looking for a more complete power exchange (aka slave), the sub/slave care is in their Dom/mes hands, not their own anymore. (at least, I met many Dom/mes thinking that way)
[15:37] Kite Homewood: ...I'm telling since I'm suffering from the same issues at the moment with my Mistress.
[15:37] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: i let my miss know when i have gone in a zone, but usually she recognises it
[15:38] Carla: Interesting choice of word: suffering
[15:39] Feralangel Tolsen: I really think that the sub has some responsibility in her own emotional care.
[15:39] Tenshi Love: Communication, respect, and trust, in a well meshed relationship that has been nurtured by both top and bottom are the best relationships, in my opinion.
[15:39] Kite Homewood: me too, actually. I just pointed out.. many Dom/mes, even expert RL scenes ones (as my Mistress is) would not agree
[15:40] Feralangel Tolsen: See.. here is the problem with that. I am talking about real life experience here mostly
[15:40] Akala Tanara: They could be entirely wrong hehe, but often it comes down to opinion and your own personal preference in Domme.
[15:40] Akala Tanara: Perhaps you're with the wrong type.
[15:40] Feralangel Tolsen: When something does go wrong the sub gets blamed
[15:40] Kite Homewood: nods nods listening
[15:40] Feralangel Tolsen: I have seen groups and communities turn on submissives
[15:41] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: seems like if there is a lot of communication at the front end, then there can be trust at those critical moments
[15:41] Feralangel Tolsen: Communication only works when the sub is encouraged to freely give it.
[15:41] Tenshi Love: I want to tie to yesterday's chat...
[15:41] Tenshi Love: where I spoke about power exchange dynamics.
[15:41] Carla: if you arent both happy together than you should find someone else that more closely matches you. It's up to you to interview the Domme as well that you can.
[15:41] Feralangel Tolsen: Honestly discuss what they like and dislike and where they are at.
[15:42] Carla: Do a 30 day trial
[15:42] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: yes!
[15:42] Feralangel Tolsen: exactly... that is... in my opinion.. part of the sub's responsibility.. it is.. in my opinion.. part of the self care
[15:43] Carla: I did that with one of my subs and its worked out very well. we meshed together well.
[15:43] Tenshi Love: tops trained to believe in power-over dynamics tend to underestimate the need for their bottom to take part in nurturing not only herself, but also contribute to the well being of the relationship.
[15:44] Tenshi Love: Yes, I said trained tops, you heard me well.
[15:44] Kite Homewood: can't agree more Miss Tenshi
[15:44] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: i was amazed to find out that there were different styles and that my style might not mesh with a Domme...i thought i could mesh with anyone
[15:44] Feralangel Tolsen: I see it as a partnership and with any partnership that requires both parties being actively participant.
[15:44] Tenshi Love: because it is a partnership, feral
[15:45] shounah: i have not been meshed in weeks
[15:45] shounah: grins
[15:45] Akala Tanara: It is, even if some dont believe that it is.
[15:45] Feralangel Tolsen: I think it is worth noting that D/s comes in many forms and levels of commitment.
[15:45] Tenshi Love: Yesterday, I defined D/s as "codependence for fun and profit".
[15:46] Tenshi Love: Fun, because you get to explore your kinks with someone. Profit, because you and your partner get mutual gratification.
[15:46] shounah: i could sum up everything that i heard since i got here in four words
[15:47] shounah: each to their own
[15:47] Tenshi Love: Since the forum is getting larger, I'm going to ask that comments be announced first with an @, so I can tally the turns.
[15:47] Feralangel Tolsen: If one party is looking for a holistic, relationship based, sexual and romantic based D/s dynamic and the other just wants to play you are going to have serious issues
[15:48] Kite Homewood: Your words are the same I heard long time ago, at my original BDSM D/s SL school, Miss.. but I did find out something truly... odd, at my eyes. maybe just my personal, unlucky experience.. buuut...
[15:49] Kite Homewood: ...I found out that those wise guidelines applying perfectly just to sl Dom/mes, almost always males, and almost always without RL experiences.. the Ladies being FAR, FAR more demanding
[15:50] Kite Homewood: ..or just plainly findomming
[15:50] Tenshi Love: why do you think that is, kite.
[15:51] Kite Homewood: ..because.. I think.. the rare REAL Dommes.. do stay in SL for SELF gratification, or money gain. No time or will, or need, for romantic kids or gals... they usually have a legion of Rl and SL ones at their feet
[15:52] shounah: didnt understand any of that
[15:52] Akala Tanara doesnt either.
[15:52] Tenshi Love: I beg to differ, but that is perhaps stemming from your experiences kite.
[15:52] Carla: Well, some of us get a lot of offers
[15:53] Kite Homewood: I mean... I met some real dommes. all of them had lil if any patience.. they were here in sl just for SELF gratification, not so caring about their subs
[15:53] Akala Tanara: @
[15:53] Tenshi Love: feral, then akala
[15:54] shounah: but subs are here for their gratification too or they would not log on
[15:54] Kite Homewood: nods.. maybe just my bad experiences, Miss
[15:54] Carla: There are no bad experiences, just an experience.
[15:55] shounah: unless you have tooth ache
[15:55] Carla: yes, well that will go away eventually
[15:55] Feralangel Tolsen: I have learned a lot about my own needs and I have also learned a lot about communicating them. I have also discovered that some people want to be objectified, some people want to be ignored, some want to be humiliated. People need varying levels of affection and time.
[15:55] Feralangel Tolsen: I think the best that I can do is to not worry about what others want and are doing and simply hone in on my own needs and be able to communicate those and seek those out.
[15:55] Tenshi Love: hehe, yes it does
[15:56] Carla: just like a "bad or good" experience.
[15:56] Tenshi Love: great point, feral. Akala next
[15:57] Feralangel Tolsen: sorry one more thing. I have also learned it is really tricky sorting out who can be a good counterpart for my needs. Ok done.
[15:57] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: ahh self-knowledge
[15:58] Tenshi Love: which is in essence what D/s enables. Self knowledge
[15:59] Tenshi Love: Autognosis
[15:59] Tenshi Love: There is a common misconception:
[15:59] Feralangel Tolsen: shoot not done. Perhaps the most difficult part of that is being ok with being alone and passing people by when they do not fit. I think that clawing need hits us and it is easy to grasp for something close.
[15:59] Feralangel Tolsen: ok done now.
[16:00] Akala Tanara: No I just elected to be skipped :3
[16:00] Tenshi Love: Oh, gah. I lost the thread.
[16:00] Tenshi Love: *give me a moment to retie*
[16:00] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ: we're discussing elements of D/s
[16:01] Tenshi Love grumbles at my keyboard
[16:01] Maggie: grumble at it, throw it, kick it, but don't pour coffee on it to wake it up,,,,trust me, bad move
[16:02] Tori Petlyakov: giggles
[16:02] Tenshi Love: There is a common misconception: That dominants are all powerful and all encompassing. We are not. We are as human as the next person. We have feelings too, unbelievable as that sounds.
[16:03] Tenshi Love: yes, we are painted to have an all powerful mystique
[16:03] Tenshi Love: But in reality?
[16:04] Akala Tanara: Aww, it's entirely believable to me :3
[16:04] Carla: but we are mysterious. All women are.
[16:04] Tenshi Love: it takes a lot of work to do that.
[16:04] Tenshi Love: It means... intended dedication to knowing your submissive
[16:05] Tenshi Love: understanding what you can do to her and not
[16:05] Tenshi Love: and most importantly, understand your own limitations as a dominant.
[16:06] Tenshi Love: Within that, and with the many elements that we have been discussing here, a D/s relationship can last for many years, instead of the canonical 5-6 months on average that a D/s relationship lasts in SL.
[16:07] Kite Homewood: I truly believe Your being wise words, Miss.. *sighs.... as far as roleplay goes
[16:07] Tenshi Love: That is the thing kite. I am not role playing these in SL. I am living them.
[16:09] Akala Tanara: I have something for that on the Role-playing.
[16:09] Tenshi Love: So. A successful D/s relationship is made of a lot of elements.
[16:10] Tenshi Love: The core, though, is based on the three elements we have identified --- communication, respect, trust
[16:11] Tori Petlyakov: nods
[16:11] Tenshi Love: we can add a lot of many other elements to that core
[16:11] Tenshi Love: the sexual pleasure
[16:12] Tenshi Love looks at tessa and grins, "I quote: "hot sex" in tessa's words."
[16:12] Akala Tanara giggles.
[16:12] Tenshi Love: But also!
[16:13] Tenshi Love: sameness of interests
[16:13] Tenshi Love: similar kinks
[16:13] Tenshi Love: Hell, even similar musical likes
[16:14] Tenshi Love: I recall absorbing somewhere that...
[16:15] Tenshi Love: that D/s relationships have a high turnover rate because there is something inherently unstable in them.
[16:16] Susan: Such as ?
[16:17] Tenshi Love: I offer that the imbalanced item is the power exchange. Yesterday I offered that there are three power exchange dynamics: Power-over, power-under, and power-with.
[16:18] Tenshi Love: Tessa has the extract of yesterday's chat where I outline the differences.
[16:18] Tenshi Love: Now... I am a firm believer in empowerment.
[16:19] Tenshi Love: Especially in submissive empowerment.
[16:20] Tenshi Love: I offer that in a good D/s relationship, a submissive becomes empowered within her submission. It sounds counterintuitive, but bear with me.
[16:22] Tenshi Love: Within the boundaries of her service, a submissive can be free to explore herself. Her sexuality, her nature. All that makes a submissive a unique individual.
[16:22] Second Life: Items successfully shared.
[16:22] Tenshi Love: This under the control and guidance of the dominant.
[16:24] Tenshi Love: The dominant on the other hand, gives the submissive a structure upon which she can rely on and use it for personal growth.
[16:24] Tori Petlyakov: @
[16:24] Tenshi Love: tori
[16:26] Tori Petlyakov: yes Ma'am, with what you just said, are you saying it is ok if the Miss allows, that the submissive explore things outside the relationship as well, as in non D/s things?
[16:26] Tenshi Love: Yes, definitely.
[16:29] Tenshi Love: What I am saying is, D/s is meant to be an important and enriching part of a submissive's or a dominant's life. But it should not be the *only* focus.
[16:31] Tenshi Love: One final round, and then we can close the discussion for today.
[16:31] Tenshi Love: I'm opening the floor for questions, perplexities, comments.
[16:32] Kite Homewood: can You spend a few words about what should 'respect' mean, Miss?
[16:32] Tenshi Love: Respect: definitely
[16:32] Kite Homewood: trust, I think self explanatory
[16:33] Tenshi Love: To me, respect means to acknowledge that the submissive I have in front of me has needs, wants, wishes and limits that I have too acknowledge
[16:34] Tenshi Love: For instance, and here again I'm going to draw from an experience
[16:35] Tenshi Love: minxy and I went to role play to a sim off gor. I wanted to make sure that her limits and status would be respected.
[16:38] Kite Homewood: ..a thing You and her could NOT have in gor. what an huge crisis that had to be, Miss...
[16:39] Tenshi Love: gorean role play was a big mistake for both, and when we left it we both drew a big sigh of relief, kite
[16:39] Kite Homewood: nods.. I did ..uhm. do unpleasant things to goreans, panthers in particular, long ago.. when i was younger and more.. combat oriented
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