[12:13:49] Fawn Starflare: When I first though of this pair of discussions a few weeks back, the inspiration was the many many different expectations we have of each other.
[12:14:37] Fawn Starflare: While I would be hard pressed to come up with definitions for top and bottom, or Domme and sub, those who have hung around the lifestyle long enough sense there is a difference.
[12:15:45] Fawn Starflare: Not all so called dom/me roles are about dominance. At least not in some traditional sense as an owner of slaves in ancient Rome or even in some parts of the modern Arab world or the antebellum American South.
[12:16:56] Fawn Starflare: And the same things goes for those we generically call subs. But some like to be kidnapped, others to be raped, and others pain. And none of those are necessarily submissive.
[12:17:46] Fawn Starflare: And then there are the truly submissive roles, servants, maids, sex toy, dolls, and all the rest. And brats, and those that love to be subdued before submitting.
[12:18:22] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) smiles
[12:18:36] Fawn Starflare: So let's go around the room. Let's see what different dommes expect from subs, three or four attributes, and what subs expect of themselves, what they want to give and what they want in return.
[12:18:58] Fawn Starflare: Again three or four things. Maybe five as we are a small company.
[12:19:07] Fawn Starflare: Who wants to lead off.
[12:19:14] Carla (cyberspy): @
[12:19:44] Fawn Starflare: Is that like raising your hand, Carla. Go for it.
[12:20:01] Carla (cyberspy): I like attentiveness, loyalty, mainly being a good friend
[12:20:19] Carla (cyberspy): I also like them to be pleasant personality and good looking as well
[12:20:23] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): @
[12:20:49] Fawn Starflare: Go ahead, mouse
[12:23:00] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): for me, i like in a top that she / he is respectful, that i can speak openly to her / him, that she/ he can see me as a person who happens to like to submit and that appreciates my service in the spirit in which it is given Miss
[12:23:43] andie (andie.faulds): hm, my feelings too mouse
[12:23:54] Fawn Starflare: Nice, mouse, but what would you say that are the three essential features of you being a sub of some sort.
[12:24:16] andie (andie.faulds): also that she respects my limits/dislikes
[12:24:59] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): my submission is based around three things Miss: obedience, devotion and selflessness
[12:26:39] Fawn Starflare: Very nice, mouse. That third is often the most challenging, but can also lead to the happiest girls.
[12:27:01] Fawn Starflare: Andie, what defines you as a sub in your mind.
[12:27:12] Carla (cyberspy): I always like to know likes and dislikes.
[12:27:32] andie (andie.faulds): obedience, loyalty
[12:27:45] andie (andie.faulds): and i guess not being a doormat
[12:28:02] andie (andie.faulds): and hoping that Miss accepts the final one
[12:28:52] Fawn Starflare: I think you fill find that few Domes, especially the better ones want a doormat.
[12:29:02] andie (andie.faulds) smiles
[12:29:08] Fawn Starflare: Typically they do not make good subs.
[12:29:10] andie (andie.faulds): i have met a few, Miss
[12:29:13] Carla (cyberspy): I dont like that stillness thing
[12:29:29] andie (andie.faulds): although it seems mostly men
[12:29:32] Fawn Starflare: To be submissive, or a painslut, or a servant, or selfless takes a VERY strong person.
[12:29:41] Fawn Starflare: The faint of heart need not apply.
[12:29:55] andie (andie.faulds): that is true Miss
[12:30:16] Fawn Starflare: Dragon constantly amazes me with the strength of her character. I find it most apealing.
[12:30:47] Fawn Starflare: ada, your turn. What qualities do you expect of yourself as a sub?
[12:31:07] AdaVenomiss: That's a tough one Miss ...
[12:31:39] AdaVenomiss: Perhaps obedience comes top
[12:31:51] Fawn Starflare: But I intend to be tough on you.
[12:32:07] AdaVenomiss: to be helpful, to take pleasure from serving and pleasing others
[12:32:18] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): @
[12:32:58] Fawn Starflare: Mouse, you wanted to add something?
[12:33:58] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): yes Miss Fawn, just a quote from MLK on service, which i think has in essence something that could be called what i call what rings close to me as a submissive
[12:34:22] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): "Everybody can be great because anybody can serve. You don't have to have a college degree to serve. You don't have to make your subject and verb agree to serve. You don't have to know Plato and Aristotle to serve. You only need a heart full of grace. A soul generated by love. And you can be that servant." --M. L. King, Jr.
[12:35:15] Fawn Starflare: Wonderful, thank you, Mouse.
[12:35:57] Fawn Starflare: 'A heart full of grace and soul generated from love.' True in the worldly as well as the spiritual sense.
[12:36:17] Fawn Starflare: Thank you again, I greatly appreciate that.
[12:36:59] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): yes Miss, i'm always happy to serve
[12:37:47] Fawn Starflare: So, finally, toy, we want to hear from you my silent girl. After that you may leave for bed. It is getting very late for you.
[12:38:21] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): ummm....
[12:38:52] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): the most important - is to enjoy serving, and trusting one owner
[12:39:07] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): placing my life into hands
[12:39:14] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): and entrusting it
[12:39:39] Fawn Starflare: Indeed you do.
[12:40:14] Fawn Starflare: When I see the trust toy places in me, I am ashamed that as a sub I never even came close to giving that sort of trust.
[12:40:51] Uniceundomiel: i am actually here as an alt, as i never come to anything unless my main is busy. i would guess obedience, loyalty, willingness to please, honesty. i think after this last Domme trust is too hard to sub for her again. maybe she will try to be a Domme if she can learn.
[12:42:14] Uniceundomiel: at least not for a while, too much to try again right now
[12:42:50] Fawn Starflare: It is possible to learn, unice, but for most there is a natural tendency. All the skills can be learned, of course. But the self confidence and other aspects of being a domme can be more challenging to acquire.
[12:43:23] Fawn Starflare: But even there, we learn. My relationship with toy over the last 2-1/2 years has truly helped me mature as a Domme.
[12:44:13] Fawn Starflare: Toy, you are dismissed. Thank you for your insight.
[12:44:13] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) smiles
[12:44:44] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) nuzzles to her Goddess and poofs off
[12:45:29] Carla (cyberspy): She is lovely Fawn
[12:46:08] Fawn Starflare: I find it interesting that as we talk about dommes and subs, that everyone has a bit of a different answer. If there were more of here today we would have even more divergence, I suspect.
[12:46:45] Fawn Starflare: Part of the reasons is that we all have multiple fantasies, different needs that propel us into this lifestyle.
[12:48:17] Fawn Starflare: As a consequence different things turn us on. It might be the way a Domme dresses, or her arrogance, or lack of arrogance. And so on, and about subs, we like them feisty, we like them trusting, etc. No one sub has it all, but we can find those that have needs we most like to fulfill.
[12:52:51] Fawn Starflare: We have been having a discussion about subs. What it means to each of us. In general every Domme and every sub perceives different requirements.
[12:53:07] Fawn Starflare: Would any of our newcomers like to comment?
[12:56:51] Julie Ingram (mistressmorville): As to the topic Fawn, sure that is about the persons and what they want, yes
[12:57:28] Fawn Starflare: Indeed, Why not tell us what you expect of a sub. what do you look for.
[12:57:40] Miss Terious (frenchsub): so many different points of view about it ........
[12:58:13] Miss Terious (frenchsub): personally.....first requirement is loyalty for me
[12:58:18] Fawn Starflare reaches out to stroke mouse's cheek as she approaches
[12:58:32] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl) smiles and leans to Miss Fawn's hand
[12:58:43] Julie Ingram (mistressmorville): Its a long list, but solid starters are, Honestly, Loyalty, Drive and desire to serve.....core things.....that come from within them
[12:58:59] Miss Terious (frenchsub): yes
[12:59:00] Fawn Starflare smiles, "Yes, it's interesting how that swamps obedience and other things."
[12:59:17] Julie Ingram (mistressmorville): smiles..I care about that
[12:59:20] Julie Ingram (mistressmorville): But
[12:59:28] Fawn Starflare gently follows the line of mouse's jaw with her finger.
[12:59:51] Fawn Starflare listens for Julie's words
[12:59:52] Julie Ingram (mistressmorville): If they dont have the things I said, my experience has been they wont make it
[13:00:10] Miss Terious (frenchsub): drive and desire to serve....yes absolutely Julie
[13:00:22] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl) looks up trustingly to Miss Fawn, nibbling gently on her lower lip
[13:01:44] Fawn Starflare: For those of you new to the club, we are at the tail end of a weekly discussion we have on Thursdays that begins a little after noon SLT.
[13:02:07] Fawn Starflare: We have other activities including dances ever Sunday afternoon and holidays.
[13:02:09] Miss Terious (frenchsub): oooh ok
[13:02:24] honeybud: okay. I'll just listen until you are done then.
[13:02:42] Julie Ingram (mistressmorville): I will make a note of this, thank you Fawn
[13:02:51] Fawn Starflare: Sometimes I also hold the discussion on Saturday, but I've not quite figured out when the best time of day would be.
[13:03:58] Julie Ingram (mistressmorville): Nods
[13:04:31] Fawn Starflare: Well we've been talking about how we each define subs a bit differently depending on our individual needs. How would you say are the three or four most important things about you as a sub, honey?
[13:04:57] honeybud ponders the question for a moment.
[13:06:21] honeybud: uhm...I guess the most important is empathy-- noticing how others are feeling. I think it's important for a sub to be supportive of their dominant and see to their emotional needs.
[13:06:43] Fawn Starflare: I think this is difficult for subs because they wrestle with what they need vs what they think a domme demands.
[13:07:09] Fawn Starflare: Excellent. I tend to agree, but you are the first to say it today.
[13:07:29] honeybud: yes...there is a great deal of more or less subtle manipulation that goes on when two people get together to each fulfill their own fantasies.
[13:07:30] Julie Ingram (mistressmorville): That is a good answer
[13:07:40] Fawn Starflare: Indeed it's my belief that the best Mistresses have this same quality.
[13:07:50] honeybud nods in agreement at Fawn
[13:08:04] honeybud: I switch...so for me it goes both ways
[13:08:10] honeybud: the empathy that is
[13:08:22] honeybud: i try not to manipulate
[13:08:33] honeybud smiles mischievously
[13:09:51] Fawn Starflare: Tries not to, ha!
[13:10:06] honeybud: well....desires can be strong
[13:10:07] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): @
[13:10:48] Fawn Starflare: I have been switch most of my life. Indeed my best skills as a Domme come from complete acceptance of myself as a sub. That I no longer sub is not important, that I remain in touch with it is vital.
[13:11:24] honeybud: yes Fawn...the best of either are usually people who have at least tried both sides I think
[13:11:59] Miss Terious (frenchsub): having been a sub for me...helps me a lot to be a domme........I mean you know best about the feelings of a sub..
[13:12:51] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): if i may i would like to add something
[13:13:00] Fawn Starflare: Please do, mouse.
[13:13:16] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): it'sabout something that honeybud said Miss
[13:13:29] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): she said she tries not to manipulate
[13:14:12] honeybud listens to Mouse
[13:15:47] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): may i suggest that in a dominant manipulation is if not explicit at least implicit in what a dominant does, in order to guide the submissive towards where the dominant wishes. that is positive manipulation... which is welcome i think, instead of the negative manipulation that one can see in abusive relationships. it's a fine point think, but important.
[13:16:20] Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): there is nothing wrong with being a switch in fact it can be a releasing experience and always learn more about not only yourself but how too take care of your girls
[13:16:58] Miss Terious (frenchsub): I agree Lilly...and I am not ashame to "switch"sometimes
[13:17:02] Fawn Starflare: In deed. I took honey's words to be more indicative of not topping from the bottom, than manipulation as a Domme.
[13:17:07] honeybud: I agree with you Mouse...I was mainly referring to manipulations by submissives, to make a domme or dom do the things to them that they crave
[13:17:16] honeybud nods at Fawn
[13:17:28] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl) blushes
[13:17:39] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): please excuse me a moment
[13:18:03] Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): well any Domme that says a sub has no control mouse is fooling herself giggling
[13:18:07] Miss Terious (frenchsub): yes I know this kind of subs...I call them"subnators".......they try to manipulate the domme.....smiles
[13:18:53] honeybud: when they start emoting what I do to them I draw the line
[13:18:55] honeybud grins
[13:18:56] Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): well Teri I feel they all do it too some extent just do it with respect smiling
[13:19:40] Miss Terious (frenchsub): well...sometimes is"well done"...and you dont even notice it....but sometimes...OMG........
[13:19:44] honeybud: of course it can be done more openly...like biting your lip and gazing at someone's feet, or crawling to them naked with a whip in your mouth...
[13:19:58] Fawn Starflare: Well look, sometimes RP is aided by emotes including a partner's response. It greases the skids, as it were. However, yes a sub needs to avoid a bit more than a domme.
[13:20:00] Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): giggling subtle
[13:21:07] Miss Terious (frenchsub): RP is essential for me.......as a domme you must have some feedback to go on....and decide the following..
[13:21:47] honeybud: yes...there should always be communication, however subtle...to help things in the right direction
[13:21:58] Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): I agree Teri if a sub is completely quiet I feel I've been doing something wrong or they left the room giggling
[13:22:31] Fawn Starflare: Of course it is also possible they are lost in subspace!
[13:22:38] Miss Terious (frenchsub): yes.......I hate "talking alone"........I mean if the sub said or emotes nothing...no play possible for me
[13:22:46] Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): this is true as well Fawn
[13:22:56] Fawn Starflare: More and more I find toy getting lost in the fantasy I spin out for her.
[13:23:18] Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): but usually some soft moans or cries of passion giggling
[13:23:21] Fawn Starflare: I am the same way, Teri
[13:23:29] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): it's amazing how many people think "rp" is essentially "cybersex" Miss Terious
[13:23:37] honeybud: yes, I prefer people who are active with emotes, even if they are tightly bound and gagged, they can describe their movements or sounds, to indicate how they are feeling about the scene
[13:24:05] Fawn Starflare: And hopefully remember they can be smelled, too.
[13:24:14] Miss Terious (frenchsub): well...how could I guess how the sub is...if I havent any information to help me ?
[13:24:30] Fawn Starflare: In RL the scent of a woman's pussy drives me crazy. If I cannot smell my sub, something is wrong!
[13:24:40] Miss Terious (frenchsub): LOL
[13:24:41] Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): very true indeed Teri
[13:24:41] honeybud: do you mean cybersex as in making each other do rl things in front of the computer Mouse?
[13:24:53] honeybud grins at Fawn
[13:24:55] Fawn Starflare: No...
[13:25:00] Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): well yes there is that Fawn smiling <sniffing the air>
[13:25:21] Miss Terious (frenchsub): even if it is only virtual...you must communicate...
[13:25:27] Fawn Starflare: I mean in terms of remember that if you are aroused you have an increasing scent which can be used to describe how you feel.
[13:25:49] Miss Terious (frenchsub): I agree Fawn...smiles
[13:25:55] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): no, i am sorry, i should have been clearer, i meant "poseball humping" with no interaction going on honeybud
[13:26:15] honeybud: ah yes, that gets boring in my opinion...
[13:26:19] Fawn Starflare: So boring.
[13:26:50] Miss Terious (frenchsub): LOL
[13:26:56] honeybud grins and nods
[13:27:59] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl) shifts a little, her tail swishing occasionally, glistening a little with the perspire caused by her vicinity to the fire