Tuesday, June 10, 2014

Taboo kinks and their expression June 8, 2014

Kinks, led by Alana

[10:58]  [2014/06/08 10:01]  Mermaid Stormcrow: A little reminder that there is a discussion at 11 SLT. Tessa won't be here, I'll do my best to come back and keep track of notes.
[11:03]  Ash (ash.yheng): We should probably start in a couple of minutes. *smiles*
[11:03]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods
[11:03]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Just giving people time to arrive
[11:08]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Okay, we're gonna go ahead and get started
[11:09]  Ash (ash.yheng): yay .*smiles and awaits for alana*
[11:09]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I want to preface this discussion by stating that this is a safe place...everyone's kinks, fetishes, etc are to be respected. If you can't do so in a kind manner, you will be asked to leave.
[11:10]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I want everyone here to feel like they can speak about anything they wish without fear of negative judgment.
[11:10]  Mermaid Stormcrow listens and nods
[11:10]  Rae (raelara.ishtari) nods, shifting enough so that she can listen and observe attentively.
[11:11]  Ash (ash.yheng): I think we're all in agreement with that, darling. :)
[11:11]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Today we're going to be talking about edge/taboo kinks, in more or less three parts...how you become comfortable participating in them, how you share them with others, and how you deal with the negative reactions of those who don't understand.

[11:11]  KittyKat Maidstone: hello Toni
[11:11]  Toni Westland: Good Morning every one
[11:11]  Mermaid Stormcrow: excellent, Alana
[11:11]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Hello Toni, come on in and grab a seat.
[11:12]  Toni Westland: Thank you Alana
[11:12]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): So the first topic we'll tackle is becoming comfortable with the kinks you have to explore/participate in them.
[11:13]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I'm gonna start off by sharing one of mine, and some of the...adjustments...i've had to make for it.
[11:13]  Ash (ash.yheng) smiles
[11:13]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): One thing that Mistress *points at Ash* and I like to do is mirroring play to RL...for example, if i'm gagged here with a ball gag, i'm usually gagged with a ball gag at home in RL, as well.
[11:14]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): One of my kinks that I was more embarrassed by, and still am to some degree, was the idea of lactation/milking play.
[11:15]  Ash (ash.yheng): Which is part of why you like it, of course. *grins* The embarrassment.
[11:15]  Mermaid Stormcrow smiles
[11:15]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): *nods* Because I am a bit of a humiliation slut, admittedly. And being that I mirror a lot of our play, I went so far as to buy a breast pump in RL, and was using it pretty much on a daily basis as part of a task Mistress assigned to me.
[11:15]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Well...it managed to actually induce lactation.
[11:16]  Ash (ash.yheng)'s eyes twinkle
[11:16]  Rae (raelara.ishtari) blinks.
[11:16]  Mermaid Stormcrow: cool
[11:16]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Which, as you can imagine, can be a tricky thing to deal with in RL, when you have no children and theoretically shouldn't be lactating.
[11:17]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): We always knew it would be a possibility, but I honestly didn't think it would happen.
[11:17]  Ash (ash.yheng): The moment of discovery was, to say the least, priceless.
[11:17]  Mermaid Stormcrow grins
[11:17]  Aeralyn (limulimu): likely a very blushing alana and sorta half squeaky over the realization that it was a possibility and a definate outcome
[11:17]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Since it did a few months ago, it's been a struggle for me at times to become comfortable continuing the play, because I know that it's going to impact my life in a lot of ways...one being the reactions of others, which we'll get into in a bit.
[11:18]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): So one thing I'd like to point out that has helped me through it is the encouragement of my Mistress.
[11:18]  Ash (ash.yheng) smiles softly
[11:18]  Mermaid Stormcrow: is it painful to use Alana?
[11:19]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Being a switch I can relate to her position as well, and I think one of the most important jobs of a Domme when dealing with a tricky situation with an uncomfortable kink is constant positive reinforcement.
[11:19]  Ash (ash.yheng): It is when I make her rootcinch her breasts first.
[11:19]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Not usually, Mermaid...except when that, yes.
[11:19]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Most of the time it's fairly pleasurable, especially if i'm..."engorged", so to speak.
[11:20]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): wait...rootcinch?
[11:20]  Ash (ash.yheng) grins
[11:20]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): In any case, that's the thing that's helped me most in accepting this little facet of my kinkyness...knowing that it's pleasing my Mistress so much that I do it and that she constantly reminds me as such.
[11:20]  Ash (ash.yheng) mimes tightening a rope around the root of her breast, smiling at Rae
[11:20]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Does anyone else want to share an experience like that and what has helped them with it?
[11:21]  Rae (raelara.ishtari) gives a little smile, shivering despite herself.
[11:21]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Hi Mizuki, Rachel, come on in and grab a seat.
[11:21]  Aeralyn (limulimu): Hmm, I guess I couuuld but that comes down to sort of me and objectification and control in a way and what i've done with it
[11:21]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Please go ahead Aera
[11:22]  Ash (ash.yheng) turns her gaze to aeralyn
[11:22]  Aeralyn (limulimu): I guess it all sort of started with looking at kinky pictures, im pretty sure everyones at least seen one or two rubber dolls, forniphilia and people being used as footstools or otherwise, myself I love the idea's behind rubber dolls, being whatever the person in control is when you feel that special spark of trust with them
[11:23]  Ash (ash.yheng) smiles
[11:23]  Rae (raelara.ishtari) blushes faintly, suddenly acutely conscious of her current attire.
[11:23]  Aeralyn (limulimu): it's one of those kind of hard to come to terms with, both emotionally and physically, because you really desire someone else to be in control of things you can do, and ultimately be for them, and in some cases it can freak a lot of people out
[11:24]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods, listening.
[11:24]  Ash (ash.yheng): Have you ever had any adverse reactions to it, when you've "come out"?
[11:24]  Aeralyn (limulimu): a few really
[11:24]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods
[11:24]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): We'll talk more about the adverse reactions in a few...
[11:25]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[11:25]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): What have you found helps you positively with it Aera?
[11:26]  Ash (ash.yheng) smiles over to molly. "Do make yourself at home. We're talking extreme kinks and dealing with them."
[11:26]  Aeralyn (limulimu): honestly, what helps me most with it is that those i am around both in a dominant fashion, and a submissive fashion while not always in a "it must be mine" kind of kink, they are at least able to view it as something i like and try to be understanding of it, so my mistress's keep an eye on me and try to preserve the me that is behind the object i become
[11:26]  Aeralyn (limulimu): and when an object you need to have the attention to make sure it's still a fulfilling and not so scary experience
[11:27]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods
[11:27]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): So then constant attention and reassurance...sounds pretty similar to what helps me through it as well
[11:28]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I know in similar situations I still to this day sometimes have a hard time with trust even though I've been with my Mistress for...what 2.5 years officially?
[11:28]  Ash (ash.yheng): Officially, yes. You were my toy way before then, though. :)
[11:28]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): It's definitely a struggle to allow yourself to be that vulnerable and trust that the other person is going to handle you with your best interests.
[11:28]  Aeralyn (limulimu) nods nods
[11:29]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): And yes, I was yours in spirit long before. That's well established. ;)
[11:29]  Aeralyn (limulimu): it's honestly a very scary kink, and one you have to trust the people who do it very much so
[11:29]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods.
[11:29]  Aeralyn (limulimu): even if it's just second life, i had a bit of a scare before too in that regards
[11:29]  Aeralyn (limulimu): thats why i won't ever do it alone in random places anymore
[11:29]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Of course...many of us connect very deeply with our avatars here on an emotional level
[11:30]  Molly Domenici nods
[11:30]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Subdrop is still a very real thing here, despite this virtual environment
[11:30]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): We're all still real people behind the screens at the end of the day
[11:30]  Ash (ash.yheng): And we have a kind of code to treat SL as realistically as possible; So no cheating. Otherwise, there's only so intensely we can experience it.
[11:30]  Aeralyn (limulimu) nods "and the times that you get scared enough to shuck off the bindings that normally make you feel safe is a bad thing
[11:30]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods
[11:31]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): ...speaking as someone who's had the privilege of playing in RL, as well as SL...i can tell you, the emotions and the feelings behind a scene here, and a scene "there"...can be almost frighteningly similar.
[11:31]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Some people come here and treat it more like a video game, and dont care if they cheat out of their restraints and such...and that's fine for those people, more power to them...but they also don't get as deeply emotionally attached.
[11:31]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Absolutely agreed Rae, good point.
[11:32]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Honestly, I think Ash has taken me deeper than anyone ever has in RL.
[11:32]  Molly Domenici: I think you two kinda blur the SL/RL lines a bit too, though
[11:32]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Does anyone else have any experiences they want to share regarding a kink they're uncomfortable with and how they cope with it?
[11:32]  Ash (ash.yheng): Submission is all about the mind. Sure, the bondage and domination experiences are different, but when it comes down to it, dominance and submission are more important to me.
[11:33]  Aeralyn (limulimu): if it isnt for the empathy and being able to feel out a person down to their heart and soul well...
[11:33]  Aeralyn (limulimu): things can go bad pretty quickly
[11:33]  Ash (ash.yheng): And to recap, for those that weren't here at the beginning, this is a safe discussion, and you will be asked to leave if you mock.
[11:34]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i try to be as open minded as possible, if i start mocking, id hope you kicked me out
[11:35]  Ash (ash.yheng): And yes, molly, we do tend to cross the SL-RL divide some. However, emotionally I think we all do to some extent.

[11:35]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Okay, if nobody has any further experiences to share along the lines of how they cope with their kink...lets jump ahead to the topic of how people handle the negative responses of others that don't understand...
[11:36]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): One of the big aspects of SL is the ability to come to places in public such as The Cellar and other "clubs", and participate in our kinks in a public forum...
[11:36]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Unfortunately, not everyone is as open minded as we'd always like, and there's sometimes negative backlash against some of the kinks we participate in, even in places such as this that are intended for D/s.
[11:36]  Mermaid Stormcrow nods
[11:37]  Aeralyn (limulimu): heck, even amongst families in sl you have belonged to for ages theres still a chance that someone you have known for ages might backlash from it
[11:37]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): ive been working to lower my anger response to people less open minded about my kink
[11:37]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): This is one I personally struggle with a lot, because admittedly, I have a temper, and when someone isn't accepting of the things I want to participate in here, I have a tendency to lash out at them.
[11:38]  Lex Berchot nods
[11:38]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): So rather than share something that works for me, because i'm honestly TERRIBLE at handling these situations...does anyone have any stories of times that has happened with them, and how they approached it?
[11:38]  Ash (ash.yheng) grins. "Which although understandable is not always what I want you to do."
[11:38]  Molly Domenici: People are going to have a reaction, that's part of why it's "kink".
[11:38]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): vcan i share an experience i handled.. poorly?
[11:38]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Please do, Rachel
[11:39]  Molly Domenici: You have to kind of... look at where they're coming from too
[11:39]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Even if it's a mistake, we can certainly learn from mistakes
[11:39]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods at Molly
[11:39]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): That's of course true, sometimes it's a lack of understanding from both parties
[11:39]  Molly Domenici nods
[11:39]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): well, as you may see from my outfit, im into ab/dl play, which many consider ageplay
[11:40]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): its not, and i checked, and the rules dont prohibit it with adult avatars if theres sexual actions taking place
[11:40]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i was informed by someone who happened to be a mod at the land i was on, that ab/dl's were "sick and wrong"
[11:41]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i wont name names or places, but i got fairly angry, and i told her i hoped most people in the kink community were more open minded then that, this was said in im not local
[11:41]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): she told me it was definitely ageplay and it was only for people not right in the head
[11:41]  Ash (ash.yheng) grimaces
[11:41]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): so i ended up calling her a closeminded bitch
[11:41]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): and then the banhammer hit me like a tonne of bricks
[11:41]  Mermaid Stormcrow: eeep
[11:42]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Yikes.
[11:42]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): And that's still admittedly more of a mild response than I would have given.
[11:42]  Rayne Baily: May I ask a question
[11:42]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Please do Rayne.
[11:42]  Rayne Baily: Not to ruffle feathers...
[11:42]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): sure
[11:43]  Fawn Starflare quietly waves to everyone
[11:43]  Rayne Baily: In all honesty.... I don't fully understand the adults in diapers acting as toddlers thing myself.... however....
[11:44]  Mermaid Stormcrow waits for more
[11:44]  Rayne Baily: Where I might -think- it wrong or weird or whatever I might -think-, isn't it just another opinion. I mean in a perfect world we would all be fully open and understanding of one another, but we are human
[11:44]  Rayne Baily: I wouldn't disrespect another for not sharing a kink I have
[11:44]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): well, i believe people are entitled to their opinion, but if its closeminded and stupid, then i think they deserve to be told that
[11:45]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): It is Rayne...and people are entitled to be uncomfortable with someone else's kink that they don't share. There is nothing WRONG with that.
[11:45]  Rayne Baily: But it is opinion that it is wrong just as it is opinion that it isn't
[11:45]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): if they dont enjoy it, fine, i wont force it on them
[11:45]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): But your last statement exactly expressed the major point...
[11:45]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): but insulted me and saying its "sick and wrong" to me, is no better then saying "all black people are thieves and criminals"
[11:45]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "The thing to remember in these conversations is that the person you see as close-minded think they're in the right. If you attack them, therefore, you're clearly going to be perceived as both wrong and irrational. So you're never going to change their minds. And so where you might have at least got them to a 'live and let live' state, now they're backed into a corner."
[11:45]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Just because you don't understand or agree with it, if it's willing participants in play, it's not "sick and wrong", or anything negative, it's just something you should respect isn't your cup of tea.
[11:46]  Molly Domenici: but some kinks are sick and wrong
[11:46]  Molly Domenici: let's not leave that out
[11:46]  Rayne Baily: True, but it works both ways
[11:46]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): Maybe an analogy could help?
[11:46]  Ash (ash.yheng): I have a story to illustrate molly's point.
[11:46]  Rayne Baily: I am not wrong for my opinions against it anymore than someone is wrong for their opinions for it
[11:46]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Granted, Molly, and those are the ones that involve unwilling parties of some sort...i.e. Bestiality, Pedophilia
[11:47]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i believe so long as no-one who isnt consenting is getting hurt, and nobody is dieing, at least in a real life sense, and everyone is into it, i couldnt care less if your into something i might consider sick and wrong
[11:47]  Ash (ash.yheng): May I, darling? *smiles at alana*
[11:47]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Please do
[11:47]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods at Rachel
[11:47]  Ash (ash.yheng): Well, it actually took place here ... back in 2009 I think.
[11:47]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): I have a RL sub, that I call "my kitten" and we do engage in some 'kitten play', she has ears, etc...but that doesn't make her a "cat" any more than an adult wearing a diaper makes them a toddler. It's perhaps the best point I could make against the opinion that ab/dl's are "ageplayers"
[11:47]  Ash (ash.yheng): I was new to the Cellar, and at the time I'd say I was a switch.
[11:48]  Mizuki Razor (jennifertwilight) nods nods "thats right"
[11:48]  Ash (ash.yheng): I ended up having an argument with a visiting Domme. She decided that I should kneel to her, and I didn't want to.
[11:48]  Ash (ash.yheng): Leaving aside protocol, the -reason- I didn't want to was because of her relationship between her and her sub.
[11:49]  Mermaid Stormcrow listens intently
[11:49]  Ash (ash.yheng): She was a white Mistress, with a black sub, that spoke with an 1700s-1800s african american lingo
[11:49]  Ash (ash.yheng): And I realised that I was having an extreme negative reaction, emotionally speaking.
[11:49]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): like...Django?
[11:50]  Ash (ash.yheng): Something like that.
[11:50]  Ash (ash.yheng): It challenged all of my concepts of racism and what is acceptable in D/s.
[11:51]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): so it was all part of rp, not actual racism then?
[11:51]  Fawn Starflare: Uh, Django??? What's that?
[11:51]  Ash (ash.yheng): In the end, I made the Mistress look like a fool, and she stormed off in a huff, but my -reason- for doing it wasn't the stated one, i.e. that I shouldn't be expected to kneel to her as a visiting switch. It was because I was prejudiced against their play.
[11:51]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): "Django Unchained" is a Quentin Terantino Film
[11:51]  Ash (ash.yheng): And I've been in two minds about it ever since.
[11:51]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): A movie that took place during the American slavery era, Fawn
[11:52]  Molly Domenici: race play does fall into the consenting adults category
[11:52]  Ash (ash.yheng): There -are- some kinks that are socially extremely challenging to accept.
[11:52]  Ash (ash.yheng): Exactly. *nods*
[11:52]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i have no sympathy for racists, but if its just rp, then i try not to be as judgmental
[11:52]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods
[11:52]  Ash (ash.yheng): But some turn our stomachs.
[11:52]  Ash (ash.yheng): And what do turn our stomachs differ from person to person.
[11:52]  Molly Domenici: I think the point is, there are lines and whoever you are, you're going to be challenged at some point about another kinks
[11:52]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i do find it hard sometimes to remember that some actions are just in character, and people may just be acting like jerks as part of rp, and arent actually jerks
[11:53]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[11:53]  Ash (ash.yheng): Personally I didn't raise the raceplay card in our arguments.
[11:53]  Mermaid Stormcrow nods...I had that happen this morning when I thought a sub was doing something against her will...but when I IM'd her she said was part of their rp. Ooops. :)
[11:53]  Ash (ash.yheng): But it did motivate me.
[11:53]  Molly Domenici nods
[11:53]  Aeralyn (limulimu): though i can understand and respect that decision, i've had a few falling outs with people because of who i am.
[11:54]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Agreed. And that's why it's up to the club owners here to define what is acceptable and what isn't within their respective places. And I think once something is defined as acceptable in a place, then if you go to such a place and you don't like what you see, you have to quietly respect that it isn't your cup of tea and either tolerate it or move on.
[11:54]  Aeralyn (limulimu): and how i recently helped a friend through their own falling out with them coming to accept who they were
[11:55]  Ash (ash.yheng): Out of curiosity - and I expect this is an above average tolerance audience. *smiles* - who else would have been uncomfortable seeing the raceplay I mentioned?
[11:55]  Molly Domenici raises hand
[11:55]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): But I think, personally, that if you come into a place like this, and see someone partaking in infantilism play, where The Cellar does not say such a thing is forbidden, then you have no right to make that person feel miserable about what they are doing.
[11:55]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Or any other kink that's acceptable...infantilism is just the example I used because it's obviously near and dear to me.
[11:55]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): And I would definitely be uncomfortable with it, Mistress.
[11:55]  Molly Domenici: I think it's more important to put the onus on yourself rather than the sim
[11:56]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): The raceplay thing.
[11:56]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[11:56]  Ash (ash.yheng): I think if some sort of play makes you -really- uncomfortable, you have to first analyse why you are so uncomfortable.
[11:56]  Ash (ash.yheng): Rather than react.
[11:56]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods.
[11:57]  Ash (ash.yheng): Of course, that's not always so easy. :)
[11:57]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Well, my being Jewish, it's not difficult for anyone to see why I don't handle racism well.
[11:57]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): you do have to be careful of the people around you, before you do certain things, as much as it might be nice to just enjoy wherever and whenever you want
[11:57]  Molly Domenici: that's personal growth
[11:57]  Ash (ash.yheng): Anyway,I'm talking too much. :)
[11:57]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Everyone else has their own reasons.
[11:57]  Mizuki Razor (jennifertwilight) nods "many not understand right, not see really and complain or ban quick!"
[11:58]  Ash (ash.yheng): Yes, if someone was playing a nazi and jew scene, I imagine you'd struggle with that darling.
[11:58]  Molly Domenici: i mean, even if we move away from race and back to age play... at some point, an avi looks too much like a child for all of us, even if there is an adult behind the screen
[11:58]  Ash (ash.yheng): Lag is getting bad. Could I suggest people turn off unneeded scripts?
[11:59]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i think if they're both adults, i ;personally wouldnt care, but in the case of child avis, the rules do get strict
[11:59]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[11:59]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I think I'd probably verbally flay them, but again, I have a temper. :p
[11:59]  Ash (ash.yheng) turns her attention fully back to alana
[12:00]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "It would help no-one but your mood, though, darling."
[12:00]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Exactly.
[12:00]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): swearing your head off, it may be therapeutic in the short run, but in the long run it ends up making things worse
[12:00]  Rayne Baily: May I... share again
[12:01]  Ash (ash.yheng): If anything, it would reinforce their behaviour, because anyone into kink play tends to accept that they're not going to be understood by all, and many of us revel in shocking others. :)
[12:01]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Of course Rayne
[12:01]  Rayne Baily: Thanks
[12:01]  Ash (ash.yheng) listens to Rayne
[12:01]  Rayne Baily: Will do my best to not be too obvious on the place I speak of, but lets get real... I am about as transparent as they come
[12:02]  Rayne Baily: Some time ago in what feels like another life I was subbie
[12:02]  Rayne Baily: Oh so subbie
[12:03]  Rayne Baily: Spending my days at a place meant for women, but welcome to anyone
[12:03]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) smirks
[12:03]  Rayne Baily: My understanding was that the boys who arrived were there for visits and were not meant to engage in play
[12:03]  Rayne Baily: This place, going back to what Alana said about clubs
[12:04]  Rayne Baily: Had set boundaries that helped me to be comfortable
[12:04]  Rayne Baily: I am super connected to my av and a lesbian in this world as well as real life
[12:04]  Rayne Baily: I spent many many days naked
[12:04]  Rayne Baily: Anyway....
[12:05]  Rayne Baily: I was often forced into a situation where a specific male would arrive
[12:05]  Rayne Baily: and began to be played within a place in pubic meant to be safe (the clubhouse)
[12:06]  Rayne Baily: In my mind I had every right to be upset with the situation
[12:06]  Rayne Baily: It was written into the sim rules, makeup
[12:06]  Rayne Baily: However, my protests were ignored
[12:06]  Ash (ash.yheng): People's hard limits and sim rules should be respected.

[12:06]  Mermaid Stormcrow looks to Alana, Alana what was the third part of the topic you were going to cover?
[12:06]  Mermaid Stormcrow: I'm checking time...and want to make sure it all gets covered.
[12:06]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods at Rayne.
[12:06]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): How we become comfortable sharing these taboo/edge kinks with others
[12:07]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Should be a much shorter topic, this is the one I knew would evoke a lot of opinion and emotion ;)
[12:07]  Rayne Baily: the bottomline here I think though, looking back is
[12:07]  Mermaid Stormcrow smiles and nods
[12:07]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): as far as im concerned, the moment they ignore objections, is the moment you leae the situation, and if they ever try it again, you never rp with them again
[12:08]  babygirlrachel Resident: feels ashamed as a sudden rush of warm wetness spreads through her already wet training panties.
[12:08]  Rayne Baily: No one has the right to trample on anyone else's fun here. Wrong to me is acceptable to another and vice versa. It is so important we all realize that.
[12:08]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods at Rayne.
[12:08]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): oops, thought that thing was off..
[12:08]  Rayne Baily: I persoanlly don't like diapers, it isn't for me, but that doesn't make me any less a friend to Alana and it doesn't mean I am close minded
[12:09]  Ash (ash.yheng): I think everyone is in agreement with that general rule. The problem comes when something is perceived as amoral or otherwise "wrong".
[12:09]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Which goes back to my point...if a sim has an established rule that something is not to be done there, then fine, but if there is no rule that something is unacceptable, and you go to that place and see someone partaking in it, then it's not your place to ruin their day over it.
[12:09]  Molly Domenici: and that that line is different for different people
[12:09]  Mizuki Razor (jennifertwilight) grins a bit "it's ok"
[12:09]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:09]  Rayne Baily: But that's just it. Making it wrong to someone else, makes it their wrong, not your own
[12:09]  Rae (raelara.ishtari) nods. "It's why I ended my marriage, ultimately...when my wife finally stated that she felt the "D/s lifestyle was inherently sinful"
[12:10]  Ash (ash.yheng): So, darling ... *turns to alana* ... let's go back to the nazi-jew scene. How -should- you deal with that?
[12:10]  Rayne Baily: If you feel confident in your kinks and enjoy them with another who enjoys them, fuck what anyone else thinks
[12:10]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): if your mind is closed, then its not being used very much
[12:10]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I actually had a situation a few days ago where someone went out of their way to tell me how uncomfortable they were because of a kink I was partaking in...and this is when I was in someone's private home...and the owners of that private home were partaking in the same kink with me.
[12:10]  Ash (ash.yheng): i think we all have to decide based on what most repels us.
[12:10]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): only an open mind allows information to flow in freely
[12:10]  Molly Domenici: objecting isn't closed though
[12:11]  Rayne Baily: Exactly, Molly
[12:11]  Molly Domenici: it's just... not accepting it outright
[12:11]  Molly Domenici: I think accepting everything without thought is equally bad
[12:11]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): not accepting it outright is different from "itsa sin ful and wrong and bad and you should feel bad for doing it" though
[12:11]  Rayne Baily nods
[12:11]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Back to the nazi-jew situation, how I think I would deal with it IF I could keep my temper in check, would probably be to leave because it's not something I could personally tolerate. I wouldn't say anything to the people participating in it...but I would contact the sim owner if it's a sim I actually cared about, and ask that they consider changing the rules to disallow that sort of play.
[12:12]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "And how would you feel if someone did that with you and one of your kinks? Wouldn't you feel slighted that they'd gone over your head to get the kink-play banned?"
[12:13]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): And that may seem closed minded to some extent...however, it's a matter of rationalizing that it's a kink that 99.9% of people even within the D/s scene would NOT be okay with even witnessing.
[12:13]  Ash (ash.yheng): Ah, but that's my point. People who feel against age play often have exactly the same opinion. That most people would and do think that it's unacceptable.
[12:13]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I know it's not nearly such an extreme for kinks such as infantilism, where someone like Rayne for example has outright stated she doesnt understand it but she doesn't mind if a friend partakes in it either.
[12:14]  Molly Domenici: it's ok to frown upon a kink, isn't it? or are we talking about whether it's right or wrong to do it in public?
[12:14]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Yes, I agree. But I think it's a much smaller section of the community.
[12:14]  Ash (ash.yheng): We all have our lines we don't or can't cross.
[12:14]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): There are many people in this room that don't care if they are around someone diapered.
[12:14]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I think virtually everyone here would be made very uncomfortable by a racism scene.
[12:15]  Ash (ash.yheng): My point is that if someone objects to your kink, they probably feel as strongly about it as you would about your own worst-case kink.
[12:15]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): But as I said...I wouldn't attack the people partaking in it, and it would be up to the sim owner...and it's the right of the sim owners here to establish rules as to what is acceptable and what isnt in their sims/homes.
[12:15]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods.
[12:15]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): as long as all you do is frown, and dont actively try to antagonize practitioners of it, and try to convince them to never do it again
[12:15]  Ash (ash.yheng): Poor sim owners. :)
[12:15]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): And if they decide your kink isnt acceptable...there's other places here you can go.
[12:16]  Ash (ash.yheng): These are really difficult issues to deal with for sim owners.
[12:16]  Mermaid Stormcrow: (I am taking pics for the Cellar blog, please let me know if you don't want to be in one)
[12:16]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I've had to deal with issues like that in being part of sim management several times...like at EO when people were openly playing in a financial domination scenario there.
[12:16]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): And that was expressly forbidden at EO.
[12:16]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:16]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): But there's plenty of other sims where that's a kink that's openly encouraged.
[12:17]  Molly Domenici: that's a good one to bring up
[12:17]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): My whole point is that if a sim does not forbid something, then someone shouldn't be attacked for partaking in that kink in that sim.
[12:17]  Molly Domenici: it's really a turn on for some but it's... kinda distasteful for me
[12:17]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "It's a tricky one, because it's easy to perceive that FinDom(me)s are exploiting vulnerable people, and that may or may not be the cse.
[12:18]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): That's more or less my opinion of it as well.
[12:18]  Rayne Baily: Whether we think something is wrong or we think something is right we all feel passionately about them. It's just entirely unfair to force others into our boxes or out of them as we see fit. The person doing the attacking of a specific kink to the person partaking in it is someone with who you don't share an opinion with. You respect the differences and move on. If you attack back, whether laced with angry or a calm slight of hand, you then become no different. I am not more closed minded for not liking a kink than the person for liking it is for telling me I am, because I don't like what they like
[12:18]  Ash (ash.yheng): But that could equally apply to all of D/s, if you think about it.
[12:18]  Molly Domenici nods to Rayne
[12:19]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Yes, it could, but this is more a discussion about specific kinks in already D/s friendly places
[12:19]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): the thing is, if they dont like it, then thats their prerogative, but if they attack, then i do consider it closeminded, no less then if they attack for race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.
[12:20]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): The Cellar is D/s friendly but that doesnt necessarily mean it's Financial Domination friendly
[12:20]  Rayne Baily: And you consider an expression of an opinion an attack?
[12:20]  Molly Domenici: yeah - that's the thing... what's an attack? Another gray area
[12:20]  Molly Domenici: Most people (understandably so) are defensive about their kinks
[12:21]  Molly Domenici: it's easy to misinterpret
[12:21]  Rayne Baily: I had someone say to me long ago a kink I enjoyed was sick
[12:21]  Rayne Baily: "ewww gross!" or something to that affect was vocalized... Loudly
[12:21]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I would consider any negative pointed language towards someone an attack
[12:21]  Rayne Baily: It kinda made me go wow
[12:21]  Rayne Baily: And it felt bad, but it was an attack on something I enjoyed
[12:22]  Ash (ash.yheng): Rayne & Molly: I think if someone is in the middle of play, especially if they're in a substate, it's likely to be a profoundly unpleasant emotional jolt. The thing that's clear about these extreme kinks, is that they tend to mean far more to those that have them than any other type of play. And as a result they will often be in a far more emotionally vulnerable state when playing in that kinkspace.
[12:22]  Rayne Baily: It surely didn't stop me for enjoying it
[12:22]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Definitely agree there
[12:22]  Ash (ash.yheng): And so if you interrupt someone's play while they're engaged, then yes, you'll get a reaction as if it's an attack.
[12:23]  Molly Domenici: my point is, it's a gray area
[12:23]  Rayne Baily: But...
[12:23]  Molly Domenici: what's an attack...?
[12:23]  Rayne Baily: if some dillhole says you are gross or whatever case may be
[12:23]  Rayne Baily: do you give up on what brings you such enjoyment?
[12:23]  Ash (ash.yheng): In my experience, if you want to raise it with them then you should try to leave it until after the play is over, or, in the case of a Domme and sub together, raise it with the Domme.
[12:24]  Ash (ash.yheng): Attack is subjective. But what doesn't seem like an attack to you, might to another person.
[12:24]  Molly Domenici: exactly... the person you think is attacking, might not be in their mind or to others
[12:24]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): So I think there's definitely a lot of variation on opinion on this topic...but to sum up so we can move on because our time is running down...I think the thing we all do agree on is that we need to try and be understanding of others and realize that not everyone is going to agree with you on the kinks you think are acceptable and those that aren't...and if you have a problem with it that you can't ignore, maybe try to approach it diplomatically at a non-sensitive time?
[12:24]  Ash (ash.yheng): Most of the time, it's best not to break a scene of any kind. Unless it's really upsetting for a -lot- of people.
[12:25]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i find an attack is anyone saying you are definitely sick and wrong, or says outright you should stop practicing your kink entirely, and never do it again, or claims there should be a law against it, etc, but yeah, it varies person to person
[12:26]  Mermaid Stormcrow smiles at Alana. Yes, let's get to the 3rd part of your topics. I'm looking forward to that as well.
[12:26]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) nods
[12:26]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I knew that would be a very heated part of the discussion but it's a very important one as well.
[12:26]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods at alana.. "But also, bear in mind if someone criticises you, it is a -far- better outcome if you can soften their stance, and attacking back will never get a good outcome."
[12:26]  Rayne Baily: The best way to handle someone like that... continue to live and enjoy your life. They can spew any words at you they so desire. They are just words. You do not need any validating from strangers
[12:26]  Rayne Baily: from*
[12:26]  Elio Paule: My favorite way to handle someone who insults a kink I am into is the block feature

[12:27]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): So lets move on to the last topic, which is how we share these kinks with others.
[12:27]  Ash (ash.yheng): I'm just imagining a whole room of people trying to have a conversation like this with blocks.
[12:27]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods at alana
[12:27]  Mermaid Stormcrow: You're right Alana, it's is important and heated. "Checks the temperature as it rises in the room".
[12:27]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Obviously when we are uncomfortable with our kinks, it puts us in a very vulnerable position to share them, because we do have to worry about the kinds of reactions that we just spoke about, and those things can be hurtful.
[12:28]  Ash (ash.yheng): -Especially- if it's someone you care about
[12:28]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Much like Rachel, it's fairly public knowledge that I also have a diaper play/infantilism kink.
[12:28]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): And that's something I didn't share with anyone in SL for years.
[12:28]  Molly Domenici: There's two sides of that... also if the one you're with admits to something intense
[12:28]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I knew Ash for close to two years I think before I let her in on that secret.
[12:29]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i tend to keep my ab/dl side hidden unless im around people i know will be trusting about it, since i know some will be judgy, but others still will then try and take part in it in ways im not comfortable
[12:30]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): It's not something I was able to easily share with others and be open about for a long time because I was worried about the negative reactions I would get, and how it would damage my reputation as a Domme (I was still VERY actively Domming at the time).
[12:32]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Eventually for me, it just took a lot of building trust with the people who I was willing to give that sort of control to before allowing myself to be vulnerable with them in that way...but i'd like to open it up to anyone else who has shared their experiences with sharing a kink with someone else that they were worried about that sort of judgment (and you can be vague about what the kink is if you wish), and how they were able to successfully do so
[12:33]  Fawn Starflare:  I listen to this conversation I suddenly feel very vanilla. I don't think toy and I have offended anyone!
[12:33]  A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) giggles
[12:33]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): well, with my Mommy/Mistress here, it was a few days after i had started being dommed by her, i was in the trial period to be officially collared by her, and her wife and i just started talking, and i guess she just got me to open up somehow, and i found out they were ok with it
[12:33]  Mermaid Stormcrow smiles at her family and listens to the discussion
[12:34]  Ash (ash.yheng): I should add that it is -not- my kink. Alana knows this well. However, I do have a strong fetish for pushing subs into deep subspace. And the means by which that is achieved are, although not irrelevant to me, not my primary motivation. If anything it was a slight anti-kink, but the end results were delicious to me.
[12:34]  Molly Domenici nods at Ash... for me it's been more on the other side... how to deal with it when the one you're with admits something like that
[12:35]  Rayne Baily: I can't offer insight here
[12:35]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) smiles and nods, "Which is also something i've experienced as a Domme as well. I had a couple pets in the past who were into things I didn't particularly care for, but the reactions from them made it all worth it."
[12:35]  Ash (ash.yheng): And honestly, most of my favourite moments in SL have been where people are outside of their comfort zone, or playing in their most difficult areas.
[12:35]  Rayne Baily: I still haven't dived into my darkest desires and I have owned my girl 3 years
[12:35]  Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): looking at the 3 lovelies
[12:35]  Moni Pet (moni.saxondale) smiles
[12:35]  Molly Domenici: if you really care about the person, you'll want to explore it even if it is a bit shocking at first

[12:36]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): sometimes, things you didnt think you'd enjoy, can turn out to be very fun kinks indeed, but some people just wont or cant enjoy something, and you need to respect that oo
[12:36]  Ash (ash.yheng): As a Domme, I have always found it worthwhile toying with the most intense kinks of the sub(s) I'm with.
[12:37]  Molly Domenici: The thing that I've found is, that... just don't dive into it... get comfortable with it in your own head first
[12:37]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I agree to some extent Molly...but I think there are some kinks that I still wouldn't be willing to do that for. I think truly caring about them would be not making them feel worse for having expressed their desire for it, and at least helping them understand why it's something you're unwilling to do.
[12:37]  Ash (ash.yheng): Alana here goes all floaty. *grins* And she stops over-thinking so much. It's yummy.
[12:37]  Rayne Baily nods to Molly
[12:37]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) smiles and nods.
[12:37]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I become monosyllabic, at times, when I'm that deep.
[12:37]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods.
[12:38]  Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): although I can push MY girls limits I feel one should also set their own limits as well
[12:38]  Ash (ash.yheng): I'll lead a discussion on subspace and altered states in the near future.
[12:38]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): It's funny, I actually noticed recently how when I'm deep, my vocabulary becomes severely limited. It's like my brain goes to mush.
[12:38]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): But yeah, that's a whole other topic.
[12:38]  Ash (ash.yheng): "blonde space" darling.
[12:38]  Molly Domenici laughs
[12:38]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): thbbt.
[12:38]  Rayne Baily: hey@
[12:38]  Elio Paule giggles
[12:38]  Molly Domenici: no mocking!
[12:38]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): ....anal falls into that category for me, though I know that's kind of tame, as kinks go.
[12:39]  Ash (ash.yheng): Not to everyone, Rae.
[12:39]  Rayne Baily: Mmm butts
[12:39]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): i mean, things I never thought I'd enjoy.
[12:39]  Toni Westland: well I will take your mushy brain over mine any day.
[12:39]  Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:39]  Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): butts are good and should be turned a light pink at times giggling
[12:39]  Myya (myya.eldrich) nods in agreement
[12:39]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): ...if not a dark red criss-crossed by purple.
[12:39]  Rayne Baily: And stuffed
[12:39]  Ash (ash.yheng): Once you get through something you thought you'd never enjoy, often it kind of becomes a fixation.
[12:40]  Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): giggling now be good girl
[12:40]  Mizuki Razor (jennifertwilight): lol
[12:40]  Elio Paule: Mmmm brains....
[12:40]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): So anyways, back on topic, does anyone have any further suggestions on ways to broach these sensitive topics and sharing these kinks with a playmate/Domme/pet/etc? Or getting the other side to open up about theirs?
[12:40]  Ash (ash.yheng): In fact, I seem to recall that alana wasn't so keen on the idea of lactation when I first met her.
[12:40]  Molly Domenici: anyway, back to the topic... I usually say something like, "I love it when you share your fantasies" but don't act on it
[12:40]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I wasn't OPENLY keen about it :p
[12:40]  Ash (ash.yheng) grins
[12:41]  Rayne Baily: Personally, I think it comes with time and trust and the interactions with varying individuals
[12:41]  Rachel Razor (babygirlrachel): i try to take it slow, i dont generally just put a diaper on, and say "change me mommy" the moment i meet someone, i take things slow, gauge their kinks and reactions and try to bring it up gradually, if i can
[12:41]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Beating around the bush has often served me well...kind of poking at the idea and seeing what sort of reactions I get
[12:41]  Mizuki Razor (jennifertwilight) smiles and rubs your head "and you did well~i am proud of you"
[12:41]  Rayne Baily: I tend to think getting to know someone as a person first, in general can lead to a lot more insights than any kinks/limits card
[12:42]  Molly Domenici: I think the point is to acknowledge the trust and exposure and vulnerability the other is entrusting you with
[12:42]  Uniceundomiel: I am pretty flexible as far as kinks, but I know some people don't like ears or feet even when clean. which I would consider kind of milk as kinks go.
[12:42]  Ash (ash.yheng): I think creating a safe, accepting space like this, and reinforcing with the sub that they can be open without being judged is important. As a Domme, i do not want a sub to hold back from me at all, even if it means they share things with me that don't mesh 100% with my kinks.
[12:42]  Molly Domenici: just open that communication channel and leave it open and come back to it when you're clear about...
[12:43]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Mistress makes a good point...I definitely think there's some responsibility on the Domme to make it clear that it's okay to open up in a vulnerable way without fear of being hurt for it
[12:44]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Well, unless you're opening up about a kink involving pain... ;)
[12:44]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): mmm....pain ;)
[12:44]  Ash (ash.yheng): I'd say that such an ability to communicate freely like that should be a pre-requisite to a collar trial.
[12:44]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar) grabs a cane from near the fireplaces and swishes it through the air, eyeballing Rae
[12:45]  Ash (ash.yheng) grins
[12:45]  Rae (raelara.ishtari): or, maybe more so...a requisite /during/ a trial collar.
[12:45]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): Careful, your butt's in a great position right now
[12:45]  Lilly Pet (lilly34bif1): a good collar trial is essential for a successful domme/sub relationship just like any other
[12:45]  Aeralyn (limulimu) pats at rae's toosh smiling
[12:45]  Rae (raelara.ishtari) blushes...watching the display as she squirms a little, subconsciously.
[12:45]  Rayne Baily: I think I skipped that step
[12:45]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): I dont think it's necessarily essential, as is the case with Rayne and her girl for example
[12:45]  Alana (devastacia.soulstar): But I don't think it ever hurts, either
[12:46]  Ash (ash.yheng) smiles

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