[11:05] Ash (ash.yheng): Looking around the room I suspect that most of you are at least somewhat versed in the subject ...
[11:06] Toni Westland: sorry I did not pick up on the subject.
[11:06] Ash (ash.yheng): ... but I'd like to go over some basics, as well as some SL-specific comments on the subject of "subspace and subdrop" for the benefit of people that are new to the scene, or used to thinking in RL context.
[11:07] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): oh, an interesting subject Miss Ash
[11:07] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): truly
[11:07] Mermaid Stormcrow nods and listens
[11:07] Ash (ash.yheng): If you're someone who reads about D/s, you'll have probably seen quite a bit about the subject, and often from extremely different perspectives.
[11:07] Ash (ash.yheng): We'll start with subspace ...
[11:08] Ash (ash.yheng): ... which I define as a moderate to deep altered mental state experienced during play, or whilst otherwise engaged in submissive activities.
[11:08] Gwen Pet (gwendolyn.sweetwater): listens attentively
[11:08] Ash (ash.yheng): For those that have been there ... and I am one, as I used to be a submissive several years ago ...
[11:09] Ash (ash.yheng): ... it can be extremely pleasurable or profound ...
[11:09] Ash (ash.yheng): .. and if it's new to you, it can also be somewhat disturbing
[11:09] Lilitha Triellis nods her head as she thinks back..
[11:10] Ash (ash.yheng): From the Dominant's perspective, it exposes the sub to a range of emotions and feelings that can trigger powerful or very different responses to the Dominant's manipulations, leaving them extremely vulnerable.
[11:11] Ash (ash.yheng): It places an extra responsibility on the Dominant, because often the sub's ability to make rational decisions is mostly gone, assuming they relax into it.
[11:13] Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "Well, there are many grades of it ... a vast spectrum. It differs somewhat from person to person, but there are at least common stimuli and emotions associated with it. There are also common chemistries."
[11:14] Ash (ash.yheng): Many have experienced something vaguely similar with pain or exercise: That release of endorphines and adrenaline that allow you to work harder, feel pain less ...
[11:15] Ash (ash.yheng): Subspace normally at least has the former of those. The latter is -sometimes- involved, although that can cause problems with some subs.
[11:16] Ash (ash.yheng): So endorphines is the former.
[11:15] Ash (ash.yheng): As opposed to adrenaline
[11:17] Ash (ash.yheng): So from a clinical perspective, Inara Pey defined subspace as "a sympathetic nervous system response to the intense pain / pleasure experienced during a scene which causes a release of epinephrine, endorphines and enkephalins". Not that I want to get too much into the biochemistry, but I want to point out that this is a very REAL thing, and something that has physical as well as emotional consequences.
[11:18] Ash (ash.yheng) turns to lili. "So, lili ... clearly this is something you have experienced. Can you tell me something about the first time?"
[11:19] Ash (ash.yheng): And if there is anyone else that would like to say something about their first time experiencing it, please volunteer.
[11:19] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl) raises her hand
[11:20] Ash (ash.yheng) grins at mouse and nods. "Do feel free."
[11:21] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): the first time i experienced sub space was in rl. it was during a hard spanking done by my then-dominant, with a hair brush
[11:21] Ash (ash.yheng) smiles and nods. "Pain is often a stimulus for the first time. It is nearly always some sort of extremely intense or submissive act."
[11:21] Ash (ash.yheng): Was it the first time you had been spanked?
[11:22] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): the feeling was such a rush, my mind was not functioning properly, i could not think straight, my sight was blurry and i felt sooo warm inside... i'll be blunt, i was moist, sexually aroused by it
[11:22] Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "And, what happened afterwards? Did the person doing the spanking realise what was going on? Did you come down slowly or fast?"
[11:23] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): i don't know if he did or not Miss, i remember being like in a trance state
[11:24] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): my first clear memory was me being held tightly
[11:24] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): it was scary, and it was wonderful
[11:25] Ash (ash.yheng) smiles. "Which is a very good way to be given a soft landing. The lack of specific memory is also not unusual. Some subs have trouble recalling much other than the general feelings during a substate. The reality is that 'subspsace' is a term for a whole range of different responses, and people's experiences differ greatly."
[11:25] Ash (ash.yheng): The important thing from a Dominant's perspective is to be on the look out for it, to be well informed about the possible consequences, and to act accordingly.
[11:26] Lilitha Triellis blink and points at mouse" What she said.. I was having trouble describing it. But that does sum it up pretty well."
[11:26] Ash (ash.yheng) grins at lili
[11:26] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): mousey-love is brilliant at that lili
[11:26] Fawn Starflare: I know there are altered states that occur on SL, but is that big physical rush possible on SL, or even on your own, or does it require another person to get there.
[11:27] Ash (ash.yheng): What I've found most subs remember clearly is the feelings as they were coming down. And unfortunately for some, this is a traumatic process, which I'll get into later. But in response to Fawn's point ...
[11:27] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): if i may?
[11:27] Ash (ash.yheng): Oh, yes mouse. *grins* Go ahead.
[11:28] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): thank you Miss, to be very brief, i have also felt subspace here in sl, it is a different feeling as it is not physically triggered, but it is an alteration of one's consciousness nonetheless
[11:29] Fawn Starflare nods at Mouse.
[11:29] Fawn Starflare: Yes. As I suggested early, I have never and an endorphin triggered high, but I have been to altered spaces as a sub in SL.
[11:30] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): i have only had it with another, so perhaps the feeling with that person also heightens?
[11:30] Ash (ash.yheng) nods at mouses's response. "I agree, with the addendum that even in RL pain play there is a massive psychological component, otherwise we couldn't overcome our base instincts to avoid pain. Furthermore, some subs can maintain substates for long periods of time without direct interactions. My experience has always been that it's stimulated very directly with interactions from others, though. But that can be as simple as a respected Domme saying 'hello'."
[11:30] Fawn Starflare: Just what toy and I were thinking just now.
[11:31] Ash (ash.yheng): The quickest and easiest path I ever found to subspace was one day when I was bratting.
[11:31] Ash (ash.yheng): There was a Domme present who I adored ...
[11:31] Ash (ash.yheng): ... and she was kind of related through collarings, and it occured to me that she was kind of my 'auntie', so I called her "auntie dearest" playfully.
[11:32] Ash (ash.yheng): This was in SL.
[11:32] Ash (ash.yheng): She emoted a turn and stare, with a long silence afterward.
[11:32] Ash (ash.yheng): And I plunged deep. My pulse shot up, I felt lightheaded, and at that moment I'd have probably done anything for her.
[11:33] Ash (ash.yheng): So, there are many -grades- of subspace, which again are only generalisations. Many talk about moderate subspace, which is normally a kind of lightheaded, pliable place.
[11:34] Ash (ash.yheng): If it's very gentle, often more a background thing because you're with a Domme and amenable to this sort of thing, it's often called "top space"
[11:35] Ash (ash.yheng): How far down a sub goes is very much up to the individual Those that are very self-controlled often have trouble breaking into that top space area ...
[11:35] Ash (ash.yheng): ... but some of those that finally do plunge really deep when the breakthrough occurs. I was one of those.
[11:35] Fawn Starflare: I'm confused by the name. I was going to suggest that Just as I have a subspace, I have a strong Domme space, too.
[11:35] Ash (ash.yheng): Domme and subspace differ greatly, as much from necessity as anything .. a Domme needs to maintain their responsibility, so can't be up to some things.
[11:35] Fawn Starflare: not as powerful as sub space, but very definately there and dangerous.
[11:35] Ash (ash.yheng) nods.
[11:36] Ash (ash.yheng): Well, they're all just -labels- ... and really the differences are great. "Top, moderate and deep" are descriptors for the magnitude.
[11:36] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): i can relate to what Miss Ash said, when Mistress is on and She causes me to be rendered vulnerable and completely helpless, i feel it, it is very much close to what Miss Ash said, "i'd subject myself to anything for Mistress."
[11:37] Ash (ash.yheng): Yes, there's a thing called "Primal space" which some subs AND some Dommes experience, normally involving a great deal of adrenaline.
[11:37] Ash (ash.yheng): this is very dangerous, especially in RL physical play, as it's easy to push too far and do real damage.
[11:38] Fawn Starflare: amen.
[11:38] Ash (ash.yheng): I wouldn't recommend it myself, but when it comes down to it some people like to push back barriers. I'd advise avoiding it, though.
[11:38] Fawn Starflare: But it is equally dangerous in virtual worlds. You can do real physiological and spiritual harm.
[11:38] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): If I wanted to describe it tritely, I'd call it the point where you realise you're a bit drunk with the power. When you realise that you really could do almost anything with your sub, and it can be intoxicating
[11:39] Ash (ash.yheng): Of course, a Domme might want to push a sub that way, if they're so inclined, but you should -really- know them well.
[11:40] Ash (ash.yheng): Often with subs there's a thing that some called "blonde space" ... *grins* ... which isn't named after molly..
[11:40] Ash (ash.yheng): And it's common to deep subspace ... it feel like your mind dribbled out of your ears.
[11:40] Ash (ash.yheng): You lose the ability to string words together ...
[11:40] Ash (ash.yheng): ... spelling and grammar are shot ...
[11:41] Ash (ash.yheng): .. you struggle with emotes ...
[11:41] Ash (ash.yheng): ... and basic decision making skills are completely gone.
[11:41] Ash (ash.yheng): Some Dommes are put off by this in SL. They don't get the RP interactions, and it's hard to relate to the sub.
[11:42] Ash (ash.yheng): It can be confused with the sub retreating from the play.
[11:42] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): i call it "float off in dreams" ^_^
[11:42] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): Mistress insists that i tell Her how i am feeling, some times i can only tell Her, "mmmmmm"
[11:42] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov) grins
[11:42] Ash (ash.yheng): And really, you have to know the sub very well to understand what they're going through, and to be sure that they're -not- retreating from play.
[11:42] Ash (ash.yheng) laughs
[11:42] Ash (ash.yheng): I've seen lili in this space more than once.
[11:42] Ash (ash.yheng) reaches down and strokes lili's hair
[11:43] Fawn Starflare gently hit's toy's head. This one is off in float space all the time!
[11:43] Lilitha Triellis: .. mMmmm
[11:43] Ash (ash.yheng) laughs
[11:43] Ash (ash.yheng): If you ask the sub how they feel, often they'll say "I dunno" or some such.
[11:43] Fawn Starflare: Or just not reply.
[11:44] Fawn Starflare: It's spooky at times
[11:44] Fawn Starflare: I know she's there, but ...
[11:44] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) giggles
[11:44] Ash (ash.yheng): Because it's hard to distinguish from retreat from a scene, you should make sure that the sub is well trained not to just retreat like that. They should know to safeword automatically if freaking out. That way you can assume that monosyllabic responses are a good thing.
[11:44] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): it is a clash, because so many feelings come together. frustration, arousal, fear, pain
[11:44] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): sowwy, Goddess =^.^=
[11:44] Ash (ash.yheng) grins
[11:44] Ash (ash.yheng): Yes, mouse.
[11:45] Ash (ash.yheng): And toy ... never feel guilty about going into subspace. It's the Domme's responsibility once you're there.
[11:45] Fawn Starflare smiles
[11:45] Ash (ash.yheng): Of course, I'm sure Fawn's told you that. :)
[11:45] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) smiles
[11:45] Ash (ash.yheng): But some subs just don't believe us!!
[11:46] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): still, i feel bad to flow off like that... it's SL, after all...
[11:46] Ash (ash.yheng): I love it when my girl is there. It means I'm clearly doing something right.
[11:46] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): so it's equal to cutting feedback to her
[11:46] Lilitha Triellis: Kind of Mistress's opinion as well.
[11:46] Ash (ash.yheng): Doesn't matter, toy. If she asks you to avoid it, that's one thing.
[11:46] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): initially i must confess i found it hard, there is no physical connection between the av and our rl, it is all mental
[11:46] Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[11:46] Fawn Starflare: Yes
[11:46] Ash (ash.yheng): One thing about SL ...
[11:46] Ash (ash.yheng): ... you're already IN an altered headspace.
[11:46] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): heheh
[11:47] Ash (ash.yheng): You have to be to relate to your AV.
[11:47] Fawn Starflare afectionately pets her wife-toy
[11:47] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) *pUrrrpUrrr~~*
[11:47] Fawn Starflare: I don't know that the Avatar is the requirement.
[11:47] Ash (ash.yheng): And so you're already more amenable to these deeper headspace, in theory. Which can make up for the lack of physical stimulus.
[11:47] Ash (ash.yheng): It's not a requirement. But relating to the avatar helps.
[11:47] Fawn Starflare: I find it's an unconstrained imagination.
[11:48] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): i found it helpful to close my eyes and imagine what was happening, and how would i feel in rl if that was happening to me
[11:48] Fawn Starflare: I had a sub in RL 20 years ago who I could make cum in public just by whispering in her ear.
[11:48] Ash (ash.yheng) grins
[11:48] Fawn Starflare: Attunement and a connection between physical and imaginary.
[11:49] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): There's certainly a point you reach where the first thought is "something is happening to *me*", rather than "something is happening to my avatar."
[11:48] Ash (ash.yheng): There's a final type of subspace I'd like to mention, and that's something referred to as "sammy space".
[11:49] Ash (ash.yheng): Sometimes a sub become kind of ... *tilts her head, thinking through her words carefully* .. willful, annoying, bratty?
[11:49] Ash (ash.yheng): Argumentative, even.
[11:50] Ash (ash.yheng): It's rare, but I've seen it once or twice, particularly with those that feel a need to be completely broken.
[11:50] Ash (ash.yheng): At times this is actually quite a deep state. The sense of judgment goes out of the window, but for some reason there's an anti-submissive backlash.
[11:51] Molly Domenici: why call it sammy space?
[11:51] Ash (ash.yheng): I have absolutely no idea. It's similar to what FRR Mallory calls "sprite space", but it's one of those things I've not been able to find an origin for.
[11:51] Ash (ash.yheng): Again, it features in Inara Pey's essay on the subject.
[11:52] Molly Domenici: hmmm
[11:52] Ash (ash.yheng): That can be hard to handle for some Dommes, and often leads to crashed scenes ... but you should bear in mind that it is not always deliberate, and like other forms of subspace, the exit needs to be managed if possible.
[11:52] Ash (ash.yheng): Has anyone here experienced sammy space? Or primal space, the adrenaline-fueled one?"
[11:53] Ash (ash.yheng): I find them to be the exception rather than the rule.
[11:53] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): no Miss, i have not experienced either
[11:53] Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "It is rare."
[11:53] Ash (ash.yheng): Okay, so for the last part I wanted to talk about "exit" .
[11:54] Ash (ash.yheng): When a sub leaves subspace it is often a traumatic experience.
[11:54] Ash (ash.yheng): Basically, you've had loads of happy hormones floating around your system, and so you experience a form of withdrawal.
[11:55] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): sub drop Miss Ash?
[11:55] Ash (ash.yheng): Then sometimes you also find that you've done things that in your normal mind are not usual, which makes you vulnerable.
[11:55] Ash (ash.yheng) smiles at mouse. "Well, if not managed properly, yes."
[11:55] Ash (ash.yheng): So, as a scene concludes, the sub experiences what's called a parasympathetic nervous system response ...
[11:56] Ash (ash.yheng): ... exhaustion, sometimes incoherence, emptiness, ...
[11:56] Ash (ash.yheng): Unless managed correctly this can lead to breakdown and depression if extreme.
[11:56] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): the times i have experienced sub space, i have felt scared and alone and in need to be held
[11:56] Fawn Starflare: after care required
[11:56] Ash (ash.yheng): As a Domme, you can help greatly and, yes ... both of mouse and Fawn's comments.
[11:57] Ash (ash.yheng): I cannot state this strongly enough: If you are taking a sub deep, leave time for aftercare.
[11:57] Ash (ash.yheng): Most of the time, they just need to be held and heard. If they're quiet, talk to them.
[11:57] Nala Spirt: nods
[11:57] Ash (ash.yheng): It makes a -massive- difference.
[11:57] Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[11:58] Fawn Starflare: A warm embraces says thousands of words.
[11:58] Ash (ash.yheng): And it can turn a potentially negative thing into a lovely, positive thing, that helps you grow together in D/s.
[11:58] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): for me, it is easy to feel down and / or very emotional
[11:58] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): i am depressive by tendency
[11:58] Ash (ash.yheng): Remember also that the sub often doesn't clearly remember the scene. And so their lasting impression is the aftercare and associated emotions.
[11:59] Ash (ash.yheng): Not every sub experiences this.
[11:59] Ash (ash.yheng): But you should -assume- that they might.
[11:59] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): the feeling of the aftercare lasts for a long time for me
[12:00] Fawn Starflare: It's a nice space for the Domme, too.
[12:00] Ash (ash.yheng): Even if they don't struggle emotionally, it's a chance to evaluate the impact of the play, and some subs, if you bring them gently down, can maintain a kind of floaty top space for days afterwards with little reinforcement.
[12:00] Fawn Starflare: For those moments you are embracing her as she comes down, she is entirely tours. Handle it responsibly.
[12:00] Ash (ash.yheng) smiles and nods. "The Domme too is often coming down off of a high."
[12:01] Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "Often a sub in aftercare remains somewhat amendable to suggestion."
[12:01] Ash (ash.yheng): In fact, it can be almost hypnotic ...
[12:01] Ash (ash.yheng): ... a few words there can have a massive and long-lasting impact.
[12:01] Ash (ash.yheng): Be considerate that they are VERY sensitive.
[12:02] Ash (ash.yheng): Some feel self-loathing even, or disgust. Because it's a time of reflection. Some are clear headed, others highly irrational.
[12:02] Ash (ash.yheng): Just be patient and supportive. if they go off on one.
[12:02] Mouse Love Lykin (minnigirl): lucid but disconnected sometimes
[12:03] Ash (ash.yheng): Not that I've experienced the subbie side in 4 years now, but I remember aspects VERY clearly.
[12:03] Ash (ash.yheng): I'd also like to add that the -first- time in subspace is critical.
[12:03] Ash (ash.yheng): be well, Gwen.
[12:03] Lilitha Triellis: the crash can be hard.. the one time i experienced it.. Normally i am a happy happy person.. Mine.. Made me feel, empty, i got no joy from things i normaly loved to do. Possibly slight depression. But, it lasted for weeks. After the event in question.. Want to talk about being vulnerable, that would be right after.
[12:03] Kayo Torii: Is the feeling, the state of mind so different for dom and sub that you make a separation? I mean for both it is a mind experience. A deep and intense one hopefully
[12:03] Ash (ash.yheng) smiles at Kayo. "I find it different. The contrast in levels of control, particularly."
[12:03] Fawn Starflare: Dommes and subs are going to different places, Kayo. As a switch I feel the difference intensely.
[12:04] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): Certainly the sub has often been taken to a more emotionally vulnerable place than the domme has Kayo.
[12:04] Kayo Torii: yes Miss Fawn, different place, but i would have like assume with a high intensity that like reflect the same steps. But my experience is very limited. Thx you.
[12:04] Ash (ash.yheng) nods at lili's comment. "Well, the first time it happened to me I vomited."
[12:04] Lilitha Triellis: was close.
[12:04] Ash (ash.yheng): I'd been playing hard and fast for weeks. never really came down.
[12:04] Lilitha Triellis: It's like a Adrenline Crash...
[12:04] Ash (ash.yheng): When I crashed, I was physically sick, shaking, had huge amounts of self-doubt.
[12:04] Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:05] Lilitha Triellis: Just with more emotion attached.
[12:05] Ash (ash.yheng): And unfortunately the Domme didn't spot it, and I ended up logging out.
[12:05] Ash (ash.yheng): It was a very bad experience.
[12:05] Fawn Starflare: That's a shame.
[12:05] Fawn Starflare: Totally changed your course in BDSM.
[12:06] Ash (ash.yheng): Once she realised what had happened, she was great, but some of the damage was done. It took me a few weeks to deal, and a lot of self-reflection. I had help from a very experience lifestyler sub who spends time in SL as a Protector, and she inspired me.
[12:07] Ash (ash.yheng): Once I came back to subbing, it took a while, but I was able to experience subspace again, and eventually let go, but it did change things for me.
[12:07] Ash (ash.yheng): So I guess long-term it was positive.
[12:07] Ash (ash.yheng): But for some, it can totally put them off.
[12:07] Lilitha Triellis: I can imagine.. I have been in subspace a few times.. Only had that bad crash once.
[12:08] Ash (ash.yheng): Does anyone else have a negative story along those lines?
[12:08] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): my first time, my mistress recognised it and pulled me back/out/down
[12:08] Ash (ash.yheng) smiles. "Well, hopefully that's a reflection on the skill of the Dommes you've encountered."
[12:09] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): and the second time my domme spent extra time when i crashed
[12:09] Ash (ash.yheng): And sometimes we as Dommes actually cause the crash. Sometimes we push too hard, and the sub just drops out.
[12:09] Ash (ash.yheng) nods at Tessa's comment.
[12:09] Ash (ash.yheng): That's good.
[12:10] Ash (ash.yheng): If you cause a sub to crash out ... maybe pushing a limit .. try not to stress. It won't help.
[12:11] Fawn Starflare: oh good point, some subs recriminate themselves for failing the dominant. That needs to be gently stopped.
[12:11] Ash (ash.yheng): Just go into protective aftercare mode, and use it as a growth and learning experience. In fact, every time a sub has dropped on me, I'd say that the aftercare has brought us closer together.
[12:11] Nala Spirt: nods
[12:12] Ash (ash.yheng): Never impose responsibility on the submissive for their subspace response, and discourage them from doing so.
[12:12] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): it sucks when RL interferes
[12:12] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): I'd say, on a purely technical note, that if something else gets in the way of a scene (server outage or your own computer failure), it's super important to recognise that the sub might have been fairly deep, and the sudden cessation of the scene may lead to sub drop while you're unable to do anything about it. In which case it's quite important to try and address the issue as soon as possible, and not just leave it till the next time you see them.
[12:12] Ash (ash.yheng): Very nice point, Teann.
[12:12] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): yes, thank you for stating that
[12:13] Ash (ash.yheng): And at some point we should have a discussion on managing public scenes and RL interruptions.
[12:13] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): yes good topic
[12:13] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter) nods
[12:13] Fawn Starflare: As a domme I find it devastating if I cannot get back to care for my girl.
[12:13] Fawn Starflare: I worry until I can hear from her.
[12:13] Mermaid Stormcrow nods in agreement
[12:14] Ash (ash.yheng): I find it extremely important for me as a Domme to -not- be stressed in a scene, whether going in or in response to events. If I am, things don't slow well, and the sub often picks up on that. It up to you to, as a Domme, to make sure they -you- are in the appropriate headspace.
[12:14] Kayo Torii: so sometimes the saying RL first may not be so easy to handle as it appears...
[12:14] Ash (ash.yheng): And you need to minimise those lack of contact times for sure.
[12:14] Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:14] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): is there any merit in being particularly attentive when the sub is 'hormonal'
[12:14] Ash (ash.yheng): 'hormonal'? *smiles*
[12:15] Ash (ash.yheng): You mean in the cyclical sense, or in the subspace sense?
[12:15] Mermaid Stormcrow: I wonder how pms/hormones affect sub/sammy space
[12:15] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): is there a correlation or higher coorelation
[12:15] Ash (ash.yheng): They can do, but not always in a linear, easy to understand way.
[12:16] Ash (ash.yheng): Sometimes they help, even. Sometimes they confuse the emotions more.
[12:16] Ash (ash.yheng): Sometimes they stop the sub from going into subspace at all.
[12:16] Ash (ash.yheng): I'd like to make one more thing clear. Not everyone achieves subspace. It is not even a goal for some people.
[12:16] Fawn Starflare nods
[12:16] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): But that doesn't just have to be a physical / hormonal response. There are plenty of other factors that interfere with a sub's response to the same stimuli.
[12:16] Ash (ash.yheng): Those with a more roleplaying approach to D/s here often don't, although they may achieve another headspace.
[12:17] Ash (ash.yheng): Others have to be trained to relax enough to do it.
[12:17] Ash (ash.yheng): Don't feel bad if you haven't experienced it. Decide whether giving into it is right for you.
[12:18] Ash (ash.yheng): As far as helping a sub go there for the first time, I'd advocate slow, sensual play myself. Focus on deep submission rather than sensation, unless you know they have different triggers.
[12:18] Ash (ash.yheng): But that's more a personal preference.
[12:19] Kayo Torii: funny you say that, i would never thought about that difference but i guess it is exactly what i feel sometimes
[12:19] Ash (ash.yheng): With sensual play I can normally control the response of a sub more precisely. But everyone's different.
[12:19] San Mauvaise: walks up behind her girl and says "Boo" loudly
[12:19] San Mauvaise: hi everyone!
[12:19] Ash (ash.yheng): So, I think that's about all I wanted to say, but perhaps others have their own stories they'd like to share?
[12:19] Mara Farlight: Hi San, you too fast for me to say hello back :)
[12:19] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov) giggles
[12:19] Ash (ash.yheng): I open it to the floor. :)
[12:19] Fawn Starflare: Ash, it might not be on topic, but I wonder if I might interject some rather personal reflections on the difference between where a sub goes and a domme goes.
[12:20] Ash (ash.yheng): Go for it!
[12:20] Nala Spirt: listens intently
[12:20] Fawn Starflare: Well the first thing is that over the decades I have made an observation as to whether I am primarily dominant or submissive in my fantasies.
[12:21] Ash (ash.yheng) nods and listens
[12:21] Fawn Starflare: When I was feeling a chaotic universe totally out of control I wanted the safety of being cared for.
[12:21] Ash (ash.yheng) smiles
[12:21] Fawn Starflare: And for me, even if I am enduring pain, shame, humiliation, etc, being a sub is being cared for.
[12:22] Fawn Starflare: When I am dominant it is because I need to directly control my world.
[12:22] Fawn Starflare: So my high as Domme is very, very different.
[12:22] Ash (ash.yheng): Interesting. Some of the time I'm actually the opposite of that. Maybe even most.
[12:22] Fawn Starflare: Pushing my sub into her orgasm or subspace is my high. It triggers my release.
[12:23] Fawn Starflare: And that feeling of control over my sub is most dangerous at that moment.
[12:23] Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:23] Fawn Starflare: So as domme I can never achieve the release that I do as a sub.
[12:23] Fawn Starflare: A domme must be in control.
[12:24] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter) nods in agreement
[12:24] Fawn Starflare: I think my relationship with toy helps me balance.
[12:24] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) smiles
[12:25] Fawn Starflare: I can place her sexually and emotionally excatly where I want her, and for me this seems to satisfy most of my sub needs.
[12:25] Ash (ash.yheng): To me this suggests that you're more a true switch than I am. For me, over time, I was a sub and my whole life suited that, and I've been a Domme and my whole life has suited that. RL circumstances haven't really dictated what I felt I needed to be. But I was never able to control which way I went very well. I'd drift very slowly from one to the other, and during those weeks-months in between I'd struggle with both.
[12:25] Fawn Starflare: Without toy, I could not function solely as a domme. I sour on it and crave submission.
[12:25] Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:25] Ash (ash.yheng): she feeds you?
[12:25] Ash (ash.yheng) grins
[12:25] Fawn Starflare: In a way, yes!
[12:25] Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:26] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) giggles
[12:26] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): and Goddess feeds me!
[12:26] Fawn Starflare: I tend to agree that we represent different sorts of switches.
[12:26] Fawn Starflare: I could always go either way at any moment.
[12:26] Ash (ash.yheng): There's a concept of "energy" in D/s, which makes for an interesting topic on its own. Some can feed off of subs, others off of Dommes, only some can easily switch between either.
[12:27] Kayo Torii: when i hear you, i have the feeling a lot of dom (most?) are switches? Is that really the case?
[12:27] Lilitha Triellis: I feed Mistress... She has commented that i give the sort of.. energy she needs..
[12:27] Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "I was never able to go that back and forth. I do not really consider myself to be a switch at all. I have the capacity to be a sub, but not as the same time as being a Domme."
[12:27] Fawn Starflare smiles.
[12:28] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): i think many dommes experience subbiness early on and then are better dommes later
[12:28] Ash (ash.yheng): I would be useless to my girl if I went down that path again.
[12:28] Fawn Starflare: I have been both at the same time. command my girls while we were kneeling before my miss.
[12:28] Fawn Starflare: But that's for another time.
[12:28] Ash (ash.yheng): So many good topics for future discussions!
[12:29] Ash (ash.yheng): MOST of the Dommes in SL, including ones you might think of as pure ones, have experienced being a sub for a while.
[12:29] Ash (ash.yheng): There are exceptions, though
[12:29] Kayo Torii nods
[12:29] Ash (ash.yheng): And I only include the good Dommes in that. :)
[12:29] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): There always are.
[12:29] Nala Spirt: nods
[12:30] Ash (ash.yheng): Yes, lili's Mistress I'm convinced is one of those exceptions. I think you have to be more intuitive about the human mind in order to pull it off, having no subbie experience to draw from. It can be done by some, though.
[12:30] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): I'd say that it's hard to be a good domme without understanding what the person on the bottom is experiencing. I don't know that the reverse is true.
[12:30] Ash (ash.yheng): I think Purdy, for those that know her, maybe one of those too.
[12:30] San Mauvaise: that is true, I have and I find it hard to imagine properly controlling a sub without knowing how they feel!
[12:30] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): But you can understanding submission without experiencing it, I'm sure.
[12:30] Ash (ash.yheng): But it's always possible that they might be concealing a subbie past for their own reasons.
[12:31] Ash (ash.yheng) grins at San.
[12:31] Ash (ash.yheng): Care to share?
[12:31] Ash (ash.yheng): Did you experience subspace?
[12:31] San Mauvaise: oh well I was a sub to an sl gf long ago
[12:31] Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:31] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): ooo
[12:31] San Mauvaise: I can feel subby when in love to that persons
[12:32] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov) nods
[12:32] San Mauvaise: and yes I have experienced sub space
[12:32] Ash (ash.yheng) nods. "On the whole, it's a good thing. Walking in another person's shoes is healthy, even if they're tortuous ballet boots."
[12:32] San Mauvaise: I dont have a general sub *need* though
[12:32] San Mauvaise: hehehe yes and all subs should also experience being a Domme for a bit too
[12:32] Ash (ash.yheng): Me neither. I do know a switch, who shall remain nameless, that perseveres in trying to be a Domme.
[12:33] Ash (ash.yheng): She gets her energy from subbing.
[12:33] Ash (ash.yheng): And whenever she doesn't sub, her girls suffer, because she loses the energy to Domme them. She'll make all sorts of excuses and avoid them as she gets more needy.
[12:33] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): "Having experienced submission" isn't the same as being a switch though. Most times it's used as a label to indicate that the person can/will submit or dominate right now.
[12:34] Ash (ash.yheng) nods
[12:34] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter) nods - I know someone like that too Ash. They are conscious that they do it though.
[12:34] Ash (ash.yheng): I never defined myself as a switch, as to me it implies being able to sub and Domme, and I was never in a place that I could easily do both. I didn't -feel- one or the other, and at the crossover, I often struggled with both.
[12:34] San Mauvaise: nods
[12:35] Ash (ash.yheng): Which was a shame in some ways, because I also struggled to Domme those I had subbed to, and vice-versa.
[12:35] Kayo Torii: I have a curiosity about Dom/sub. I have the feeling that there is more sub than dom. Is that a reality?
[12:35] San Mauvaise: I think for a lot of people it depends on the person they are relating too, whether they feel dommy or subby
[12:35] Lilitha Triellis: I am quite happy subbing.. and not ever being a domme..
[12:35] Ash (ash.yheng): It means I'd be very closer play partners with someone, and if I went through a transition, all play with them tended to cease.
[12:35] Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): I always interpret it as "I may dominate or submit in the future", with no suggestion as to which they may prefer at any given point.
[12:36] Ash (ash.yheng): There were exceptions, though. My first experience of a Domme state was against a backdrop of subbing. And in retrospect it was probably quite a dangerous headspace to be in. But it worked out okay.