Thursday, October 22, 2015

Discipline vs Punishment 4 Oct 2015 Miss Fawn discussion

[2015/10/03 12:14]  Fawn Starflare: Greetings, and thank you for coming.

[2015/10/03 12:29]  Fawn Starflare: I think, as it is on my mind, we will talk about discipline and punishment.
[2015/10/03 12:29]  Fawn Starflare: some of you saw the bundle of stinging nettle I was holding when you came.
[2015/10/03 12:31]  Fawn Starflare: However, first, I made some changes to my profile last night.
[2015/10/03 12:34]  Fawn Starflare settles herself in the chair.
[2015/10/03 12:35]  Fawn Starflare: are we all ready to proceed.
[2015/10/03 12:35]  Ana Topaz (anathae.bogart): yes Miss
[2015/10/03 12:35]  Ekaterina Urstein (arsanerit): nods
[2015/10/03 12:35]  gwen (sapphicfancy): yes Miss
[2015/10/03 12:37]  Fawn Starflare: The point I am making here is the difference between training and play.

[2015/10/03 12:38]  Fawn Starflare: In real life both the medicine woman and the shaman who taught me (not BDSM!)  would throw up their hands because they couldn't spank me, I would like it too much.  This means that teachers and Mistresses have to be creative.
[2015/10/03 12:38]  Ana Topaz (anathae.bogart): giggles
[2015/10/03 12:39]  Ana Topaz (anathae.bogart): sorry  miss  but thats what people say to  me.
[2015/10/03 12:40]  Fawn Starflare grins at Ana.
[2015/10/03 12:40]  Fawn Starflare: That was quite alright.  It is amusing.  However the question remains for dominants, how to punish, or rather how to correct and train.  The first thing is understanding that true submissives react to the dominant's displeasure.  I phrase it like that because those interested only in scenes are about the role play and sexual stimulation rather than in being trained.  However if you have a true submissive, the dominant's obvious or expressed displeasure is often all it takes.  In fact, at this point some sort of actual punishment is required to stem, turn off, the self-guilt.  My girls know my displeasure, I usually do not ignore them, but I will withhold an eagerly awaited whipping or "rape."
[2015/10/03 12:45]  Swallow (ravishedgirl): I don't think that's always the case though.  I don't think everyone responds the way you group them .. I've had lots of experience on both sides of this conversation.
[2015/10/03 12:48]  Fawn Starflare: No, swallow, you are right.  Every girl is different, and that's why I took out the nettles for the first time in almost two years (I think).  Today's infraction required a correction that will be remembered, and a quick touch from the nettles will do that.  Some dommes use the whip or crop.  I try not to, those are, in my family, for more pleasurable activity, play punishments, or just because I want to.
[2015/10/03 12:52]  Swallow (ravishedgirl) must have missed what happened
[2015/10/03 12:53]  Fawn Starflare: I did not say. I will now.  Sextoy missed something going on in SL because she was in another site we, as a family, are using for a fun project.


[2015/10/03 13:32]  Fawn Starflare: And, I like my girls to be happy, most of the time.  And this, for me, makes discipline an interesting situation.  Canceling that scene would be a punishment.
[2015/10/03 13:32]  ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov) nods
[2015/10/03 13:34]  Fawn Starflare: So would withholding the whip, crop, or paddle.  What we were discussing was my use of expressing my disappointment with a girl.  Swallow correctly pointed out that does not work all the time, not even for some true submissives.
[2015/10/03 13:37]  Fawn Starflare: maybe I need a better term, however...
[2015/10/03 13:39]  ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): being ignored is a huge punishment for subbies
[2015/10/03 13:39]  Fawn Starflare: yes.
[2015/10/03 13:40]  Fawn Starflare: tessa see the first paragraph of my freshly updated profile.
[2015/10/03 13:40]  ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): ooo
[2015/10/03 13:43]  Fawn Starflare: The thing with pleasures, almost any pleasure can be turned turned into a torment.
[2015/10/03 13:43]  Fawn Starflare: However, you have to decide about the risk of permanently making a pleasure something to dread.
[2015/10/03 13:44]  Fawn Starflare: I use them all.  slutdoll taught me that.  I do things easily now, that I categorically would not do when I met her.  She had to make me trust her when she said I could do anything to her.  In my experience, very few are able to live up to that.  I have learned to test everything a sub tells me about herself.
[2015/10/03 13:44]  Fawn Starflare:  Another favorite theme of mine: We make a big deal of sub trusting the domme.  However the obverse is equally true. the domme must trust the sub.  Most specially there needs to be trust in the sub's feedback.  Is she toughing out something to prove something to herself to me?  Is she merely trying to please me?  So this trust thing cuts both ways.
[2015/10/03 13:50]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): Something similar is true of safeword use I think.  You have to trust that a) they will use it when they need to, and b) they won't abuse it.
[2015/10/03 13:52]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): The trust comes from open and honest communication, not hiding what you feel or diminishing things because you think that's what the other wants to hear.
[2015/10/03 13:52]  Ekaterina Urstein (arsanerit): nods
[2015/10/03 13:53]  Fawn Starflare: Precisely.
[2015/10/03 13:53]  Fawn Starflare: excuse me while I get slutdoll's attention.
[2015/10/03 13:53]  Fawn Starflare: ¸„.-·~¹°”ˆ˜¨ I'll bet you'd love to be dominated, wouldn't you? ¨˜ˆ”°¹~·-.„¸
[2015/10/03 13:53]  Fawn Starflare: ]¦•¦[ Prepare to suffer! ]¦•¦[
[2015/10/03 13:53]  A-Toy slutdoll (dragony.darkfury): /me giggles


[2015/10/03 13:54]  Fawn Starflare smiles
[2015/10/03 13:54]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): A sub that doesn't safeword when they need to is going to find themselves in a situation where they resent their dominant for going too far.  A sub that safewords because things aren't going "their way" will find that their dominant is put in an impossible position: forced to choose between not paying suitable attention to the safeword, or losing control of the situation. And they may choose the third option: to cease playing with the sub altogether.


[2015/10/03 13:54]  Ekaterina Urstein (arsanerit): absolutely, Teann
[2015/10/03 13:55]  Fawn Starflare: There are other ways for both of those to turn out, teann.  A lot depends on how much self control the domme has.  If she does not strike out in anger and if she has self confidence, both situations can simply be learning experiences that improve things.
[2015/10/03 13:58]  sadiziah: giggles listening
[2015/10/03 13:58]  Fawn Starflare: [to slutdoll] Pussy stuffing again tonight, girl.  Rope panties again.  Ankles to the foot of the bed and collar to the head.  Lets keep your hands attached to your collar tonight.  No temptation to touch yourself.
[2015/10/03 13:59]  sadiziah: hope she doesn't get cramp then.
[2015/10/03 13:59]  Fawn Starflare: And I will do something nasty before allowing you to cum in the morning.
[2015/10/03 14:00]  Fawn Starflare: She's been doing this over three years.  No cramps.  We do a few things that are generally not considered safe practices, but which her Russian paranoia does not object to.  So far, knock on wood, no problems.
[2015/10/03 14:01]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter) chuckles
[2015/10/03 14:02]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): I'm sure there are ways to recover situations when a safeword has been under or over used, with enough experience.  I think I was focusing more on the establishing the trust before it goes that far / wrong.  Building up a clear understanding, on both sides, as to what will happen and what should happen, for it to be good for everyone.
[2015/10/03 14:03]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, topics we've covered in the past and will cover again, no doubt.
[2015/10/03 14:09]  Fawn Starflare: Another thing I recall had to do with Teann's remarks about helplessness in her likes, that helplessness must be contrasted with freedom.
[2015/10/03 14:09]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter) nods
[2015/10/03 14:10]  Fawn Starflare: I direct slutdoll's self bondage every Friday and Saturday night since August three years ago.  At this point, critical things in the morning are
[2015/10/03 14:11]  Fawn Starflare: First when she awakens and opens her eyes its as if she didn't open them.  Then she can't move.  Then she remembers.  After that the desire to be free is very great.  Knowing she may release herself if she cums, it's like she is one hot breath from orgasm, and the feeling after release is almost orgasmic, too. Especially so if she was denied orgasm.
[2015/10/03 14:14]  Fawn Starflare: These are things we've learned over the span if 3+ years.  playtoy (ekaterina) is just starting on this journey.  It's very different.  Its anyone's guess as to where she'll be in 3 years.  One can try to control the direction of the journey, but the only control the domme has are the challenges she presents.
[2015/10/03 14:18]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): The contrast is perhaps what makes the intensity though.  Without the denial, the pleasure would be less intense. Without the restriction, the freedom is less rewarding.
[2015/10/03 14:19]  Fawn Starflare: Indeed, teann, I agree completely.
[2015/10/03 14:20]  Ekaterina Urstein (arsanerit): nods, agreeing
[2015/10/03 14:20]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): The trust you build allows you to explore near each sub's limits, and by exploring those extremes, maximize the pleasure that they can enjoy.  When you decide they've earned it, of course <winks>
[2015/10/03 14:21]  Susan Dangle: *smiles* It's easy to make the Dommy feel like they are in control.  But really the sub has most the power in the relationship.  You might ask your sub to do something.  But it's their choice to comply with it or not.
[2015/10/03 14:22]  sadiziah: how can that be, a sub having more power than her miss is a contradiction surely
[2015/10/03 14:23]  Fawn Starflare: You know that's really not true.
[2015/10/03 14:23]  Susan Dangle: Really?
[2015/10/03 14:23]  Fawn Starflare: I heard it thousands of times.  I've said it many times.
[2015/10/03 14:23]  Susan Dangle: Then your a well trained Domme, if you think you're the one in charge.
[2015/10/03 14:23]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): There are choices on both sides, always.  But I don't agree that the sub necessarily has most of the power.  Perhaps in a relationship where the dominant is bringing nothing to it.
[2015/10/03 14:23]  Fawn Starflare: But I have the same power not to play that the sub does.  I can disengage.
[2015/10/03 14:24]  Ana Topaz (anathae.bogart): its a matter  of who gives in 1st
[2015/10/03 14:24]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter) nods at Fawn
[2015/10/03 14:24]  sadiziah: agrees with teann it must vary from one relationship to another
[2015/10/03 14:24]  Susan Dangle: For one who cares for many subs, you have far less control than a Domme with 1 sub.
[2015/10/03 14:24]  Fawn Starflare: Then that means there has been no submission and its over already.
[2015/10/03 14:25]  sadiziah: if I submit I would hate to think I had any control, it would destroy it for me.
[2015/10/03 14:25]  Fawn Starflare: we both have obligations to fulfill.  We are both playing roles.  Neither has more power than the other.
[2015/10/03 14:25]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): Again I disagree Susan.  The control you have is not diluted by who you are in a relationship with.  Only the time you can spend with them.
[2015/10/03 14:25]  Susan Dangle: Sadiziah you have limits with your RP; even if you submit, you have a line you're not willing to cross.
[2015/10/03 14:26]  Fawn Starflare: I have power over my subs only because they grant it.  If I compel it, things stop being consensual, and when consent isn't present, well we're talking about something different.  In that case one can truly take away all choice.
[2015/10/03 14:27]  Susan Dangle: Who draws the line Fawn? You or your sub?  It's a simple question.  Who sets the limit on what they are willing to submit to?  You or your sub?
[2015/10/03 14:28]  Fawn Starflare: Its tricky and we have explored this the last two weeks.
[2015/10/03 14:28]  Susan Dangle: It's not tricky
[2015/10/03 14:28]  sadiziah: I have limits but thats not about who's in charge.
[2015/10/03 14:29]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): That the sub has a choice does not diminish the aspect of control.  If you provide your sub with a pleasure that they cannot get themselves, then it's not about "drawing lines".  You are in control because they cannot compel you to give them what they desire.
[2015/10/03 14:29]  Fawn Starflare: consensual bdsm is a paradox.
[2015/10/03 14:29]  sadiziah: by definition if I am in control its broken
[2015/10/03 14:29]  Fawn Starflare: the sub (and i've been a sub and a slave) wants to feel compelled, feel that things are safe and deep down she needs it to be safe, hence trust.
[2015/10/03 14:31]  Susan Dangle: Oh I agree there has to be trust.  On both sides.  Submitting to someone who you do not trust isn't good for either person.
[2015/10/03 14:31]  Fawn Starflare: As a domme I have similar issues, I want to pretend/behave as if the only thing I wanted was her pain, humiliation, suffering, whatever.  But it would devastate me to cause real harm.
[2015/10/03 14:32]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): The sub has the choice to make it *stop*. That doesn't mean they have control of getting what they want.
[2015/10/03 14:32]  Susan Dangle: Really Teann you think they don't get what they want?
[2015/10/03 14:32]  Fawn Starflare: not if the domme knows what she's about.
[2015/10/03 14:32]  sadiziah nods
[2015/10/03 14:33]  sadiziah: I was restricted a month for a minor thing.  first week it was kinda exciting.  Week three i'm like ok i'm sorry.   But it stayed the month.  Then me being smart did it again.  Same restriction 2 months.  So I had to do this or risk more displeasure.  If I do it again, four months.  So she was in control.  I made the choice to comply.
[2015/10/03 14:33]  Fawn Starflare: Powerful incentive to learn, sadiziah, you gave her the control.
[2015/10/03 14:36]  sadiziah: but not the choice, if that makes any sense.
[2015/10/03 14:36]  Fawn Starflare: and that's the point.
[2015/10/03 14:33]  Ekaterina Urstein (arsanerit): thing is, it ("me", sorry Goddess for that) doesn't want what it wants, it wants what her Domme wants
[2015/10/03 14:33]  Susan Dangle: When I kneel to my Mistress I have already gotten what I wanted. And started the chain of events that will get more of what I want.
[2015/10/03 14:34]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): Then Susan I think your mistress isn't really dominating you.
[2015/10/03 14:35]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): When the choice is between playing the way the domme wants, and not playing at all, who is in control? It's not submissive, if you are only doing things you wanted to do anyway.
[2015/10/03 14:35]  Susan Dangle: ok Teann. Do you request your sub to kneel or does she do it automatically?
[2015/10/03 14:35]  Susan Dangle: And Fawn same question do your subs kneel by only request or auto?
[2015/10/03 14:36]  Ana Topaz (anathae.bogart): my submission  is based on  mutual respect  no respect  no submission


[2015/10/03 14:36]  Fawn Starflare: My girls know I love the control.  They enjoy letting go of control.  We please each other.
[2015/10/03 14:37]  Susan Dangle: I'm not saying your not pleasing each other.
[2015/10/03 14:37]  Fawn Starflare: and they know I fill find a way to make them regret displeasing me.  Its part of what they desire, but it is real.
[2015/10/03 14:37]  Susan Dangle: Or am I saying you're not in some form of control. That was given to you. You didn't force taking it from them.
[2015/10/03 14:38]  Fawn Starflare: If you want to stay in a relationship you do what it takes.
[2015/10/03 14:38]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): Some of those who've submitted have knelt for me, but that's not part of the submission. Submission would be kneeling when they didn't want to, because I desired it. And I've had that too. But the only reason they knelt, when they didn't want to, was because I was in control of something else that they wanted more than they *didn't* want to kneel.
[2015/10/03 14:39]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): They gave me the kneeling, because I wanted it, and because I had the choice of whether or not to give them the satisfaction they were looking for.
[2015/10/03 14:39]  Fawn Starflare: for me it meant becoming so good at playing the sadist role it became believable.
[2015/10/03 14:39]  Fawn Starflare: indeed, teann.
[2015/10/03 14:39]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): The control was mine. They could have chosen not to kneel, and not gotten what they wanted.
[2015/10/03 14:39]  Fawn Starflare: Just like sadiziah, and my girls.
[2015/10/03 14:41]  Susan Dangle: Look at Sadiziah.  She is kneeling no one requested her to kneel she just felt the need to. For herself. No one forced it on her. I am not saying it is a bad thing I rather enjoy subs to kneel without request. But it does show my point that it was her choice not ours.
[2015/10/03 14:41]  sadiziah: Yes, true but I comply to obey when I don't want to.  That is submission.
[2015/10/03 14:41]  Fawn Starflare: I saw an interesting point about the difference between submissive and slave in a tumblr account this past week.  For a submissive there is always room for and the right to negotiate.  For a slave there are no rights or negotiations when the contract, verbal or written, is entered.  However here is what I discovered.
[2015/10/03 14:45]  Fawn Starflare: my girls are submissives.  There can always be negotiation.  However it is my job to make them feel like slaves.  No self determination what so ever.
[2015/10/03 14:45]  Susan Dangle: Well I am have been a sub and Domme and as a Domme I understand I am GIVEN control not taking it.
[2015/10/03 14:46]  sadiziah: may I just say a thing even though i'm new here
[2015/10/03 14:47]  Susan Dangle: Your more then welcome to speak Sadiziah.
[2015/10/03 14:47]  Fawn Starflare: of course, sadiziah
[2015/10/03 14:47]  sadiziah: its all personal.  Everyone sees things different.  As long as we feel matched, we should have no negative views about others.
[2015/10/03 14:48]  Fawn Starflare: I see.
[2015/10/03 14:48]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): Susan - why do you think your statement is incompatible with ours? I didn't say that our control was *taken*. I said that the control was *ours*. We achieve it by being who we are, by having something to offer those we play with.
[2015/10/03 14:50]  Susan Dangle: I never said anything like that Teann. My point is it's a given control not taken. I do think we have lost the main talking point I was trying to state at the start.
[2015/10/03 14:51]  Fawn Starflare: Susan, have I not stated that my power over my girls was given to me, but that does not mean its not real.
[2015/10/03 14:52]  Susan Dangle: Oh no Fawn I never said it wasn't real.
[2015/10/03 14:52]  Fawn Starflare: it is part of the price of being in a relationship with me.  They would have no less, nor would I.
[2015/10/03 14:52]  Susan Dangle: I agree it's their choice to sub to whoever they wish.  And it's your choice to Domme whoever you wish.
[2015/10/03 14:53]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): I don't force girls to kneel for me. I offer them something that they value, and in return they give up some or most of their influence on their situation. That I have something to offer is what gives me control of the situation. That the submissives enjoy what I offer is what makes them want to give their control away. Your points about Sadiziah kneeling are something altogether different. That's just something she wants to do. No control has been exercised over her. That's nothing to do with dominance or control.
[2015/10/03 14:54]  Fawn Starflare: but she chose to endure a punishment she did not like.  It was the cost of belonging to her mistress.
[2015/10/03 14:54]  Susan Dangle: Yes and thats my point Teann it was her choice.
[2015/10/03 14:54]  Fawn Starflare: She gives over control.
[2015/10/03 14:56]  sadiziah: on reflection, Susan is also correct because anyone who logs on to SL does so because they want to, and therefore its not possible to be a slave, it is only pretend to be.
[2015/10/03 14:56]  Fawn Starflare: lol ... sadiziah I have been saying this for years.
[2015/10/03 14:56]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): Yes Susan. She's not submitting to anyone. She's not given away any control. I thought we were talking about relationships where control is surrendered, not about submissive people who act a certain way. You were talking about subs having most of the control, and I counter that with the distinction that subs have the choice to give away their control, or not give it, but that doesn't mean that they are suddenly in control.
[2015/10/03 14:59]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): Sadiziah is not submitting. She's chosen to do something she wanted to do. We were talking about control in submissive relationships, not how submissive girls act outside of a relationship like that.
[2015/10/03 14:59]  Fawn Starflare: Look, consensual bdsm is different from someone kidnapping you, putting you in chains, and doing whatever they damn well please.
[2015/10/03 14:59]  Susan Dangle: Ok First I am not saying a Domme has no power. Or that your not in control. But that control is given to you.  Without the Sub trusting you, you have nothing.
[2015/10/03 15:00]  Fawn Starflare: Complain too much and you'll find yourself gagged so tightly you can't breathe.  So please, let's not air this as if that's the only thing meant by slave.
[2015/10/03 15:01]  Susan Dangle: The sub is giving you that feeling of control.
[2015/10/03 15:01]  sadiziah: can't argue with what you say miss Susan
[2015/10/03 15:01]  Fawn Starflare: In RL slaves stay because they choose... if it is consensual.
[2015/10/03 15:01]  Susan Dangle: Yes
[2015/10/03 15:01]  sadiziah: but lots of us like the illusion, and well I believe in my own submission
[2015/10/03 15:01]  Denise Diesel: Susan, a sub wants to be controlled. That is why she became submissive. A good Mistress, knows how to deal with that. Among each other they will come to an agreement. So no need to feel sorry with the sub nor the Miss
[2015/10/03 15:02]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): I'm sorry, but you *did* say that Susan. You said that the sub has most of the power. And I don't think that's true. The sub offers the opportunity to be controlled, but that really doesn't feel like it would make you the powerful person in the relationship.
[2015/10/03 15:02]  Fawn Starflare: we define our term in that context.
[2015/10/03 15:02]  Susan Dangle: Yes Sadi I full agree with you.
[2015/10/03 15:02]  Fawn Starflare: I know the sub does not have most of the power.  It is oft said, but is not true.
[2015/10/03 15:03]  Susan Dangle: Yes the sub does have most the power in the relationship. She gives you the control and she can cut off that control or set limits to how much or how deep that control is.
[2015/10/03 15:03]  Fawn Starflare: the common argument is, if the sub leaves, there is no play.
[2015/10/03 15:03]  Fawn Starflare: and I replied, when I leave there is no play.
[2015/10/03 15:03]  Susan Dangle: The more they trust you as the dommy the more control you gain.
[2015/10/03 15:04]  Susan Dangle: You aren't the one who sets the limits in the relationship it's the sub who does that.
[2015/10/03 15:04]  Fawn Starflare: and do you think I will allow a sub to control the play?  That person no longer plays with me.
[2015/10/03 15:04]  sadiziah: I notion that neither can exist without the other, but subs accept this more graciously
[2015/10/03 15:04]  Fawn Starflare: and what is the most common sub complaint... no domme to play with.
[2015/10/03 15:05]  Teann Daorsa (kinkedwriter): Susan, everything you say can be turned around the other way as well. The dominant can set limits as well, and if those limits are breached, they can choose to end the relationship. Both parties are equal in their choice to enter the relationship. But once they're *in* the relationship, one party is getting to decide what happens, and the other is not.
[2015/10/03 15:06]  Fawn Starflare: also susan, you are not seeing the point. and now I exercise my control.  I leave you to play with yourself.  Have a good day all.  It's been interesting.
[2015/10/03 15:07]  Ekaterina Urstein (arsanerit): It wishes the best for everybody :)

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