Monday, September 28, 2015

Objectification - Miss Fawn discussion 26 Sept 2015

[2015/09/26 11:57]  gwen: here comes Miss Fawn !  Hello Miss
[2015/09/26 11:57]  gwen smiles warmly
[2015/09/26 11:57]  Ruby: good evening Ms Starflare
[2015/09/26 12:05]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, I sort of had a topic in mind last night, so I agreed to do the discussion.
[2015/09/26 12:05]  Fawn Starflare: And finally, ruby, It is nice to meet you as well. Are you new to the Cellar?
[2015/09/26 12:06]  Ruby: i have been coming sporadically, Miss Fawn. Mouse recommended that i should come.
[2015/09/26 12:07]  Fawn Starflare: Oh nice! mousie is a good friend and sub.
[2015/09/26 12:07]  Fawn Starflare: San is very lucky to own her
[2015/09/26 12:08]  Fawn Starflare: Oh, and here, is ada. One of Miss Denise's girls, though often on my leash holder.
[2015/09/26 12:09]  Fawn Starflare: Sextoy, the one with only mouth, pussy, ass, and tits exposed is the toy I mentioned in my announcement.
[2015/09/26 12:09]  Fawn Starflare: sextoy, as you need to leave almost immediately, would you explain what objectification has come to mean to you.  When I found you in this room you were not yet a sextoy.
2015/09/26 12:11]  A-Toy sextoy: It is something that goes way back. It was a long time before 'it' became Goddess' property put into this kind of outfit.  But Goddess has refined it and enhanced it's role.

[2015/09/26 12:11]  A-Toy slutdoll smiles
[2015/09/26 12:11]  Fawn Starflare: ·´)› Here's your punishment  ‹(`·
[2015/09/26 12:11]  Fawn Starflare: ]¦•¦[ Prepare to suffer! ]¦•¦[
[2015/09/26 12:11]  Fawn Starflare: ((that's just my way to make sure my girls are present))
[2015/09/26 12:11]  A-Toy slutdoll: i like this method =^,,^=
[2015/09/26 12:12]  Fawn Starflare: And the night you decided you wanted to only be a an 'it'?
[2015/09/26 12:12]  A-Toy sextoy: The objectification has become important for it.  More and more over time.
[2015/09/26 12:12]  A-Toy sextoy: The night it decided to give up it's humanity and become an object was intense, but also giving it a peace in it's mind
2015/09/26 12:13]  A-Toy sextoy: As being nothing more than three holes and two tits is a total opposite of a normal life, it creates a way to let go of worries and just focus on Goddess.
[2015/09/26 12:14]  Fawn Starflare: Are you still sleeping better, sextoy?  I know you seem more happy.
[2015/09/26 12:14]  A-Toy sextoy: You could say 'it' is it's gift to it's Goddess, and in much it really is. But it is also giving it a welcome break from it's real life issues.
[2015/09/26 12:15]  A-Toy sextoy: Yes Goddess, it feels much more at ease since it became your object.
[2015/09/26 12:16]  A-Toy sextoy: It sleeps better, finds more strength for work, feels happier and more complete
[2015/09/26 12:16]  Fawn Starflare: As relief from the demands of family, maintaining a home, and an overly responsible job??
[2015/09/26 12:16]  A-Toy sextoy: exactly!
[2015/09/26 12:16]  A-Toy sextoy: It's a kind of stress relief, and a more than intimate way to submit.  Perfect combination for it at least.
[2015/09/26 12:17]  Fawn Starflare: And I know you have to leave to return to your RL.
[2015/09/26 12:17]  Fawn Starflare: I will seal you.  But TP home before logging off
[2015/09/26 12:17]  A-Toy sextoy: yes Goddess
[2015/09/26 12:17]  Fawn Starflare: Mutes sextoy's hearing.
[2015/09/26 12:18]  A-Toy sextoy: And for all listeners, as 'it' is nothing more than an object it is kept blind, gagged and deaf as it is stored
[2015/09/26 12:18]  Fawn Starflare: Makes it totally blind,
[2015/09/26 12:18]  A-Toy sextoy sighs happily as it is blinded
[2015/09/26 12:18]  Fawn Starflare: And makes is impossible to do anything but moan and dimly scream.
[2015/09/26 12:19]  Fawn Starflare: Ok, sextoy, you are dismissed.
[2015/09/26 12:19]  Fawn's sextoy HMMPF
[2015/09/26 12:19]  Fawn Starflare: Have a wonderful time with your family and sweet dreams.
[2015/09/26 12:19]  A-Toy amazon: Take care, sextoy.
[2015/09/26 12:19]  Ekaterina Urstein: sweet dreams, sis :)
[2015/09/26 12:19]  Fawn's sextoy loves its family and its Goddess very much and moans softly as it bows its head for them
[2015/09/26 12:20]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: may I ask a question Fawn?
[2015/09/26 12:20]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, Kay, please.
[2015/09/26 12:21]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: why do your girls call themselves "it"?
[2015/09/26 12:21]  Fawn's sextoy: 'it' is a sextoy, an object with only three holes and two tits.  And the property of its Goddess.
[2015/09/26 12:21]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: are they anti-gender?
[2015/09/26 12:21]  Fawn Starflare: In a way, some of them are.
[2015/09/26 12:22]  Fawn Starflare: They are objects.
[2015/09/26 12:22]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: they are not loving submissives to you??
[2015/09/26 12:22]  Fawn Starflare: sextoy's desire is to be be used as I would use a dildo.
[2015/09/26 12:22]  A-Toy sextoy (Nilla Hax): left the region.
[2015/09/26 12:22]  gwen: So, not so much as a gender issue, its that they are "its" not humans?
[2015/09/26 12:22]  Fawn Starflare: In our culture we do not assign an identity or gender to most objects.
[2015/09/26 12:23]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: yes, I get that and all the titles, what perplexes me, is that they are people too.  My girls have names.  They are girls, and they speak of themselves as such.
[2015/09/26 12:23]  Fawn Starflare: There is a bit of controversy over objectification, and my attitude about it has changed radically.
[2015/09/26 12:24]  A-Toy amazon smiles. "If you don't mind me interjecting, Mistress.. each of us is different in our desires and how we interact with Mistress."
[2015/09/26 12:24]  Fawn Starflare: At one time in forums, one would see dominants, almost exclusively men, requiring slaves to refer to themselves only as 'it', taking away identity to train humility and submission.
[2015/09/26 12:24]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: Oh my goodness, that is long gone.  I get it, and I respect your choice/culture.
[2015/09/26 12:25]  Ruby raises her hand
[2015/09/26 12:25]  Fawn Starflare: No it's not long gone. I encounter it all the time.
[2015/09/26 12:25]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, Ruby?
[2015/09/26 12:26]  Ruby: if i may interject, respectfully, i feel what happens with an objectified person is pertinent to the objectsphere he or she is being put into by the dominant.  Yes, that person is human, and yes that person has a name. But while in the objectsphere, he or she can disconnect from that, and have a state of disconnection
[2015/09/26 12:27]  Fawn Starflare: I started this discussion in an usual way.  I have not really stated my beliefs, or what I desire from my girls.
[2015/09/26 12:28]  A-Toy slutdoll smiles
[2015/09/26 12:28]  Fawn Starflare: I present an extreme end-case because she needed to return to her RL family.  So that is the end of the story arc.
[2015/09/26 12:28]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I think Ruby said it well
[2015/09/26 12:29]  Fawn Starflare: Yes.  You, Kay, and also Ruby seem to assume i BELIEVE SOMETHING THAT I DO NOT.
[2015/09/26 12:29]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: what is that, may I ask?
[2015/09/26 12:29]  Fawn Starflare: I do not use objectification in that way of trying to reduce ego, increase humility, or any of that stuff.  As I pointed out my priorities are these, in this order.
[2015/09/26 12:30]  Ruby: i never assumed any such things, Miss Fawn, if i may. i just stated an opinion, respectfully

[2015/09/26 12:30]  Fawn Starflare: Intimate FRIENDSHIPS, and I do not mean acquaintances the way social sites have sucked the meaning out of the word "friend".
[2015/09/26 12:31]  Fawn Starflare: Companionship, Intimacy, loyalty, trust, love.
[2015/09/26 12:31]  A-Toy amazon: /me giggles. "I think we all get the difference between 'friends' and 'Facebook friends'."
[2015/09/26 12:31]  Fawn Starflare: That is, I and my girls, like many of you, desire a long term stable relationship.
[2015/09/26 12:32]  Fawn Starflare: I am not sure of that amazon.  You and I are older.  20-somethings may never have seen the word used in a meaningful way.
[2015/09/26 12:32]  Fawn Starflare: I put BDSM after those other things.  My girls and I need BDSM in our relationships, but its organizational.
[2015/09/26 12:33]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: BDSM is the "love" part for many
[2015/09/26 12:33]  Fawn Starflare: I run my family, but I deeply respect my girls as women and human beings.  And here is where objectification comes in.  I believe in doing unto a sub what she would have done to her.
[2015/09/26 12:34]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: is not taking their gender and names away, a manner of distancing them from you?
[2015/09/26 12:34]  Fawn Starflare: The BDSM relationship is a collaborative relationship.
[2015/09/26 12:35]  Fawn Starflare: As a Domme and leader I try to help my girls grow.  Not in some cookie-cutter pattern of my own, but in ways important to them.  I take joy in making their fantasies live, and co-opt them to my purposes, using it for my enjoyment and entertainment.
[2015/09/26 12:35]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: yes, feeding them, letting them grow, helping them to realize their full potential.
[2015/09/26 12:35]  Ruby: i would have a comment to Miss Kay's if i may, Miss Fawn
[2015/09/26 12:35]  Fawn Starflare: That I do that is important to my girls.  That I put me first, completes them as subs, as toys.
[2015/09/26 12:36]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: of course it is Fawn
[2015/09/26 12:36]  Fawn Starflare: Now slutdoll (dragon) always enjoyed being a doll.
[2015/09/26 12:36]  A-Toy slutdoll: and pony! and kitty!
[2015/09/26 12:37]  A-Toy slutdoll: =^,,^=
[2015/09/26 12:37]  Fawn Starflare: All these subs you see wanting to be only a number and look like a robot.
[2015/09/26 12:37]  A-Toy amazon grins
[2015/09/26 12:37]  Ekaterina Urstein bats its eyelashes
[2015/09/26 12:37]  Fawn Starflare: And I could not give my wife what she wanted.  I didn't want a doll.
[2015/09/26 12:37]  Susan Dangle: It's easy to forget that the sub is very much a part of and agreeing to whats going on vs just the Domme.  It's not right to blame or look down on a Domme for something they all agreed to.  Seeing it from the outside, you can and will always see and color it wrong in your own mind.  Many people who do not understand D/s do not see it as what it really is.  Joint agreement on what is taking place.
[2015/09/26 12:37]  Fawn Starflare: But we each taught and trained the other.
[2015/09/26 12:37]  Fawn Starflare: I gradually got into the whole doll thing, especially when sextoy joined us.
[2015/09/26 12:38]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: oh, I know D/s very well from both sides actually
[2015/09/26 12:38]  Fawn Starflare: Now slutdoll loves to be treated as a doll. In fact they all rather enjoy being treated as objects, things without any feelings for me to consider when I use them.  But that's a game.
[2015/09/26 12:39]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I have called myself 'girl', as that was what my Mistress at the time required, she called me 'girl'
[2015/09/26 12:39]  Fawn Starflare: They feel safe with me because they know that to me they will always be women, independent and strong.
[2015/09/26 12:39]  A-Toy amazon: Watching Mistress and slutdoll ... hehe... I still have to remind myself of that... watching their relationship has been very satisfying for me.
[2015/09/26 12:40]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I totally get it Fawn
[2015/09/26 12:40]  Fawn Starflare: But in the RP of D/s I seem to ignore feeling.  I learned to play a deep sadist, but it's only a role.
[2015/09/26 12:40]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I just feel taking away their identity is somewhat belittling
[2015/09/26 12:40]  Susan Dangle:  No one should judge others RP if you do not know whats really going on.  I see it to often, someone getting upset over D/s when they are only seeing one side of it.
[2015/09/26 12:41]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: Yea, usually aftercare is private. :)
[2015/09/26 12:41]  Fawn Starflare: The paradox of BDSM is being able to be in a person to be humiliated, hurt, abused, serve without choice while deeply knowing, but consciously forgetting, we are safe.
[2015/09/26 12:41]  Ruby: Miss Kay, i feel objectification is not a tool meant to distance Domme from sub; On the contrary, i feel that built on a base of consent, respect, communication and trust, it is a way to complement that closeness. Especially for the sub, i think, because objectification allows total surrender to the Domme for those people who enjoy it.
[2015/09/26 12:42]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, when using "it", it goes deeper in its bond with Goddess, it's very thrilling, actually
[2015/09/26 12:42]  Ruby: i mean, is there more a total surrender than to tell one's Mistress, "please make me your object"
[2015/09/26 12:42]  Fawn Starflare: Sorry ladies and girls... I tend to type with my head down.
[2015/09/26 12:42]  Fawn Starflare: Interesting remarks there.
[2015/09/26 12:42]  Susan Dangle: I agree there are times when I see a couple I might question whats happening. And even seen bad Dommy's and bad subs. But honestly I shouldn't judge them or care what they themselves want.
[2015/09/26 12:42]  Fawn Starflare: Talk about judging.  I remember being at lover's playground and someone going, "What did she do to deserve that."
[2015/09/26 12:43]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: oh, I'm not questioning or judging any of you or any one for that matter, I am interested in the reasoning behind it.
[2015/09/26 12:43]  Fawn Starflare: And my answer is, "She was very good and obedient and stretched her limits, and I am rewarding her in a way she enjoys."
[2015/09/26 12:44]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS:  I am interested, as it is a new way for me.  Maybe I might like it or even enjoy it, but I wish to understand it first.
[2015/09/26 12:44]  Susan Dangle: D/s by itself is like any RL Relationship.  Just you are giving a lot more Trust.
[2015/09/26 12:44]  Fawn Starflare: I was a 50%/50% switch until after being with dragon for a year.
[2015/09/26 12:45]  Fawn Starflare: It became too complicated to try to sub and take proper care of my wife.  I gave up subbing.
[2015/09/26 12:45]  Susan Dangle: BDSM is play many D/s relationships do. Both aren't the same thing. There are many who do BDSM who aren't into D/s
[2015/09/26 12:46]  A-Toy amazon: Just to be a smart ass... judgment is vital. I rely on my judgments of others to guide my choices relative to those people. Though i try to be aware of how much information I have.
[2015/09/26 12:46]  Fawn Starflare: Of course Susan, but consider this
[2015/09/26 12:46]  Fawn Starflare: BDSM == BD + D/s + SM
[2015/09/26 12:46]  Susan Dangle: D/s is the relationship side.  Its a relationship organization.  Who obeys whom comes after intimacy, companionship, and love.  Many people who are just starting learning D/s tend to focus on the play not the relationship.
[2015/09/26 12:47]  Fawn Starflare: And in my family they take care of me as much as I take care of them.  I want to make them happy.
[2015/09/26 12:47]  Ekaterina Urstein: nods warmly
[2015/09/26 12:47]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: isn't that what any Mistress wants?
[2015/09/26 12:48]  Fawn Starflare: But like a parent, if it is necessary to correct them I do it with love, out of love, doing my utmost to make the correction appropriate to the situation.  I would not say "any Mistress," Kay.
[2015/09/26 12:48]  A-Toy amazon: Miss Kay.. unless you're slicing the definition of Mistress in a very particular way... I'd say no.
[2015/09/26 12:49]  Fawn Starflare: Here at the cellar we tend to put a premium on relationship.
[2015/09/26 12:49]  Ruby: any Mistress truly worth her salt :)
[2015/09/26 12:49]  Fawn Starflare: The ones we call fake dominants or fake subs, their focus is not the same.  I cannot prescribe or speak for them.
[2015/09/26 12:49]  Susan Dangle: agreed
[2015/09/26 12:49]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I have been here at the cellar for many years, not a lot since some people passed away, but I know all about what you do here
[2015/09/26 12:50]  Fawn Starflare: I am at the Cellar because somehow relationship has always come first here.
[2015/09/26 12:50]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: yes, it does, I even recommend it to newbies on the D/s subject.  I have learned much here, and why I return from time to time, in hopes I might learn more, thus my questioning
[2015/09/26 12:50]  Fawn Starflare: /me smiles @ Kay, And good questions, too.
[2015/09/26 12:50]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: This is the first time i've been here.
[2015/09/26 12:50]  Fawn Starflare: Welcome, Amanda. I am hoping you are enjoying the chat.
[2015/09/26 12:51]  Susan Dangle: There are many who aren't following D/s, just the play or act of it. And they really don't care if others don't like or agree with them. But then again why should we look down on them? They are humans too and just wanting to play. Granted I do not get involved with them. But thats my choice.
[2015/09/26 12:51]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: I am very much thank you :)
2015/09/26 12:51]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: I really like that line of thinking Susan.
[2015/09/26 12:52]  Fawn Starflare: amazon, slutdoll, playtoy, do any of you want to add anything?
[2015/09/26 12:52]  Susan Dangle: I've been in the same D/s relationship for over 10 years with the same Dommy.  I've seen many Dommy's and subs come and go thru SL.
[2015/09/26 12:52]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: that's wonderful!
[2015/09/26 12:52]  Fawn Starflare: Good for you, Susan.
[2015/09/26 12:53]  Susan Dangle: I used to run a D/s chat group for many years.  On helping new people understand it or join it if they wanted.
[2015/09/26 12:53]  Fawn Starflare: If I might, I would say one further thing on objectification that applies to all sorts of roles.
[2015/09/26 12:53]  A-Toy amazon: I agree with most of what's been said. Even for casual players or players who are not really interested in relationship... there *is* a relationship. I find it works out much better when you have people who say that out loud and are willing to talk and to compromise.
[2015/09/26 12:53]  Fawn Starflare: Every girl or toy is unique.  When we play by ourselves, my girls can all look the same.
[2015/09/26 12:54]  Susan Dangle: Twinning is a fun RP. If one likes it.
[2015/09/26 12:54]  Fawn Starflare: But the reality is, each has a unique psychology. And it means that they are turning on and off to different parts of the play.  Sextoy begged vociferously to never be allowed to use I, me, she, her.
  She literally begged to be only an object.
[2015/09/26 12:55]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, "it" helped it to focus on its features, enhancing them and producing a better life overall. Goddess keeps "it" and "she" in balance, so it feels very safe. Plus as said earlier, it goes deeper in the bond, and sees "it" as a neutral gender, not bound to pre-made ideas
[2015/09/26 12:55]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: and your girls are trained well
[2015/09/26 12:55]  Fawn Starflare: Yes.
[2015/09/26 12:55]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: they each have a lot of respect for you, I can see that
[2015/09/26 12:55]  Susan Dangle: I'm no better then any Domme or sub. Just being one for a long time doesn't make me better :) Just means I've seen everything that many of us have problems with or are confused about.
[2015/09/26 12:55]  Fawn Starflare:  This is playtoy.  Her sister influenced her and playtoy uses it, but playtoy also needs her humanity.
[2015/09/26 12:56]  Ekaterina Urstein nods
[2015/09/26 12:56]  A-Toy slutdoll smiles
[2015/09/26 12:56]  A-Toy amazon giggles. "And I am almost a polar opposite to sextoy in that regard."
[2015/09/26 12:56]  Fawn Starflare: Yep.
[2015/09/26 12:56]  Fawn Starflare: And slut doll in between.  She likes the objectification, and desires to be deeply objectified, and then to be cuddled and coddled while bound.
[2015/09/26 12:57]  Ekaterina Urstein blushes softly and smiles brightly.
[2015/09/26 12:57]  Fawn Starflare: LOL
[2015/09/26 12:57]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: Can i ask a question of Eka?
[2015/09/26 12:57]  Susan Dangle: I like seeing new Domme's who really want to know what D/s is about. So I do not wish to run any off. It's great to ask questions and get involved in groups like this.
[2015/09/26 12:57]  Fawn Starflare: Susan, that perspective about length of experience is true for me, too.  I've seen stuff.  Some I understand, some I don't.
[2015/09/26 12:57]  Ekaterina Urstein: sure, Amanda
[2015/09/26 12:57]  A-Toy amazon: Open conversation is lovely.
[2015/09/26 12:57]  Susan Dangle: Agreed. It would be boring if we knew everything :)
[2015/09/26 12:58]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: Do you feel, going into a deeper losing of self, that it forms a stronger relationship? To me it seems it would, that is a lot of trust.
[2015/09/26 12:58]  Fawn Starflare: But here I have a girl who copes with RL better because I am willing to treat her like that.  How can I judge her, or someone like me that wants to make her happy.  If my purpose was to tear down her identity, to demean and degrade her, rebuild her soul..... that, to me, is the worst sort of crime, akin to murder.
[2015/09/26 12:59]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I agree
[2015/09/26 12:59]  A-Toy amazon: The quality I try to evaluate on is whether a relationship looks healthy to me. If I see a toxic relationship, the only reason I'd want to be involved is if one or both people are friends.
[2015/09/26 12:59]  Susan Dangle: I try to not judge anyone. Or their style of play. People might have kinks I totally disagree with. But I'm an adult and know I can cover my eyes so to speak. If someone is doing something I disagree with.
[2015/09/26 13:00]  Ruby: if it means your toy's satisfaction and fulfillment, objectification is only a tool, and something that gratifies both you and her, used as a weapon... it's, i feel, abuse
[2015/09/26 13:00]  Kitty Larsen: mmm im really eager to hear the Pope's vision on this...
[2015/09/26 13:00]  Susan Dangle: Pope would say we're all evil and going to hell :) While running from the room to go masturbate in his room.  [A.N. The Pope actually spoke against narrow mindedness]

[2015/09/26 13:00]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: lols Kitty
[2015/09/26 13:00]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: omg Susan
[2015/09/26 13:00]  A-Toy amazon: If it looks healthy, or if I simply don't know... then yay, it's two people doing right by one another, and I should let them follow their own needs. Possibly from a safe distance.
[2015/09/26 13:00]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: A-toy, that's a lot what I do in RL.
[2015/09/26 13:01]  Ekaterina Urstein: Amanda, it always keeps its self-identity, that's why it can go deeper, but the feeling of giving more and more trust, it does help for strengthening is mutual. Since in this kind of travel, trust is mutual
[2015/09/26 13:01]  Fawn Starflare: My point exactly.
[2015/09/26 13:01]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: Thank you Eka, sorry for the misinterpretation.
[2015/09/26 13:02]  Ekaterina Urstein: No harm done, Amanda :)
[2015/09/26 13:02]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: But i learned even more from my question :)
2015/09/26 13:02]  Ruby: if i may share an experience Miss Fawn?
[2015/09/26 13:03]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I am amazed at the level of trust in what you have Fawn
[2015/09/26 13:04]  Fawn Starflare: Yes Kay, I somehow engender very much trust and faith from female submissives.
[2015/09/26 13:05]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, it requires a lot of trust. and trust takes time.
[2015/09/26 13:05]  Fawn Starflare: And do not think that its only the sub who needs to trust the domme.
[2015/09/26 13:05]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: certainly.
[2015/09/26 13:05]  Fawn Starflare: The Domme has trust issues, too. Dragon said, "You can do anything to me that you like."  And I was, "Yeah, right!" Very sarcastically.
[2015/09/26 13:06]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: ha! been there!
[2015/09/26 13:06]  Fawn Starflare: She had to earn my trust before I felt comfortable RPing a sadist for her.
[2015/09/26 13:06]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: I have a hard time getting comfortable with it.
[2015/09/26 13:07]  Fawn Starflare: This is an issue I've seen mentioned elsewhere.
[2015/09/26 13:07]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: but the trust is also in oneself as well
[2015/09/26 13:07]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, very true, Kay.
[2015/09/26 13:07]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet nods.
[2015/09/26 13:07]  Fawn Starflare: Recently my inner fantasies have been very very dark.
[2015/09/26 13:07]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: oh, fun.
[2015/09/26 13:08]  Fawn Starflare: And I explained to my girls and said I was afraid to let them out.
[2015/09/26 13:08]  A-Toy amazon smiles. "I can attest to the trust thing. I've found I have no real desire to be a domme to anyone except a select few of my friends who bring it out in me."
[2015/09/26 13:08]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: I know those feelings well.
[2015/09/26 13:08]  Fawn Starflare: But they have interest in it, and I trust them to be strong enough to say to me, "No, that's too far."
[2015/09/26 13:09]  Ekaterina Urstein: nods
[2015/09/26 13:09]  Fawn Starflare: It is very hard to fully submit to someone.
[2015/09/26 13:09]  Ekaterina Urstein: 'it' feels its responsibility to provide her a safe environment for her fantasies about it
[2015/09/26 13:09]  Fawn Starflare: The level of trust required is very high.  People who can truly submit are not weak people, but very secure people, very strong.  This is a lesson I've been teaching katya.  Putting her into positions where she is available to anyone.
[2015/09/26 13:10]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: funny, my wife and I trust each other to the end, and it is THAT trust that lets us go beyond barriers and explore the limits.
[2015/09/26 13:11]  Fawn Starflare: And it has made her stronger, reinforced her sense of self.  But that was done only after coming to know her very well.
[2015/09/26 13:11]  Ekaterina Urstein: nods, blushing, remembering those events
[2015/09/26 13:11]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: smiles, those are beautiful events
[2015/09/26 13:11]  Ruby: i have a background in gorean role play; the ethos there is that slaves are considered property; in a way, a form of objectification. Granted they are considered "animals" as a matter of fact a common moniker for slaves in gorean role play is "beast" however i wish to propose that the objectification (animalization?) that slaves are subjected to in gorean role play is not a good one. There are bad kinds of objectification, or bad ways in which to use it. Much like a spade is either a tool or a weapon. In gorean role play objectification of slaves is used as a weapon
[2015/09/26 13:11]  Fawn Starflare: Remember everyone is unique. The way one person handles something may not work for another.
[2015/09/26 13:12]  Fawn Starflare: Ruby, that's because of the flawed philosophy of Gor.
[2015/09/26 13:13]  Fawn Starflare: The notion that women are only fit to be slaves.  That men are the only ones fit to rule.
[2015/09/26 13:13]  Fawn Starflare: It's a very misogynous message.
[2015/09/26 13:13]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I have, (I'm sorry) no good words for Gor.
[2015/09/26 13:14]  Ekaterina Urstein: and like Goddess said, 'it' got in touch tighter with itself and its features and its worthiness
[2015/09/26 13:14]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: Ruby, I have a background too. I believe the roleplay as a whole, can be very like that. But the personal relationships within, not so much.
[2015/09/26 13:14]  Fawn Starflare: I read the first 10 Gor books as they were published when I was a teen.
[2015/09/26 13:14]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: that is, if you find a good one.
[2015/09/26 13:14]  A-Toy amazon grins at Katya. "You have always struck me as being supremely comfortable in your own skin."
[2015/09/26 13:14]  Fawn Starflare: By book 8, I was completely disgusted and bored.
[2015/09/26 13:15]  gwen: I quit in the middle of book 2
[2015/09/26 13:15]  Ekaterina Urstein: well Cali, thank you much. Goddess did help me for the remaining scars and still does it
[2015/09/26 13:15]  Fawn Starflare strokes play's hair. It has done very well. It very clearly has better self worth and self confidence than when we met a few months back.
[2015/09/26 13:15]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet: i agree completely Fawn, but the books and the roleplay have distanced much.
[2015/09/26 13:16]  A-Toy amazon: I have no direct experience with the books, nor have I immersed myself in a Gorean RP group. I have noticed that Goreans have a focus on protocol that far exceeds my personal taste for it.
[2015/09/26 13:16]  Ekaterina Urstein: beams, purring happily from the praise, Thank you much for the praise Goddess, it is so glad to have pleased you this way
[2015/09/26 13:17]  Fawn Starflare: When I found these books in the grocery story, I was stunned and couldn't wait to read them. And I almost stopped by page 10.
[2015/09/26 13:21]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: my wife, (as I for my wife) is on my Collar, we can chat even when my Mistress blocks me
[2015/09/26 13:21]  Ekaterina Urstein: nods
2015/09/26 13:23]  Ekaterina Urstein: in the meantime, it is open to any questions :)
[2015/09/26 13:23]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I love the discussion night here
[2015/09/26 13:23]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: have been to some, but usually I am at work when they happen
[2015/09/26 13:29]  Fawn Starflare: Well We are at the tail end of one of my club chats.
[2015/09/26 13:29]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: smiles and nods to Moni
[2015/09/26 13:29]  Fawn Starflare: We seem to have lost focus and the topics becoming more general.
[2015/09/26 13:29]  Wolf Vella: ah
[2015/09/26 13:29]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, the topic was about objectification
[2015/09/26 13:30]  Moni Pet feels like a lamp post

[2015/09/26 13:31]  Moni's belt: whispers: lilly34bif1 Resident claps on Moni's buttocks
[2015/09/26 13:31]  Amanda DeLynn Cazalet chuckles
[2015/09/26 13:31]  Moni's belt: Moni cries out in ecstasy.
[2015/09/26 13:31]  Ekaterina Urstein: how it is used, how it enhances the relationships, for example, but it is sure, there are other topics related to that.  It's not about breaking down anyone.  It is about the golden rule: Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.
[2015/09/26 13:35]  Ekaterina Urstein: it agrees
[2015/09/26 13:35]  Ekaterina Urstein: it likes them too
2015/09/26 13:39]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: how does being objectified further oneself??
[2015/09/26 13:40]  Ekaterina Urstein: mmmm
[2015/09/26 13:40]  Ekaterina Urstein: it is going to try to answer to that
[2015/09/26 13:40]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: please do Eka
[2015/09/26 13:41]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, in its case, it's going closer and closer to the features of that object,  and in the process being able to deliver closer and closer the features of that object
[2015/09/26 13:44]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, it answered :)
[2015/09/26 13:44]  Fawn Starflare: From my perspective it depends on the emotional and spiritual needs of the individual.
 [13:44] Fawn Starflare: my sextoy finds relief from the pressures of her RL. She sleeps better, is happier, is more refreshed when with her spouse and children.  With playtoy (katya) being an object makes it easier to let go of control in public situations.
[2015/09/26 13:45]  Fawn Starflare: It need only worry about it's purpose and an object.  'It' does not have an ego to be bruised.
[2015/09/26 13:45]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: "IT" meaning a table, chair, tree, what?? what features are you trying to identify with and how are you growing when you are a chair, table....object???
[2015/09/26 13:45]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, it depends on each case, Kay. It's up to each individual and appeals
[2015/09/26 13:46]  Freja FoxMaiden Riggles nods in agreement at Ekaterina
[2015/09/26 13:46]  Fawn Starflare: And in practice playtoy has found that this bolsters her self esteem, self worth, even her self-identity.
[2015/09/26 13:47]  Fawn Starflare: "self-" here means an attribute as you perceive it internally without reference to others.
[2015/09/26 13:47]  Fawn Starflare: Outsiders are fickle and do not judge objectively.
[2015/09/26 13:47]  Freja FoxMaiden Riggles: some like objectification as art-work, and some like it as tools, it depends
[2015/09/26 13:47]  A-Toy amazon: It's enough to keep me for a few days to a week at this time of year.
[2015/09/26 13:47]  Fawn Starflare: We become hurt or dejected or depressed because we think we do not have value in the eyes of others.
[2015/09/26 13:48]  Ekaterina Urstein: for example for its sextoy sis, the closer it feels to a sextoy with all the features of one, the happier it is, it felt.
[2015/09/26 13:48]  Fawn Starflare: However what is most important is your own confidence in your self.  What you know yourself to be, etc.
[2015/09/26 13:48]  Ekaterina Urstein: hence its answer, it's valid for its own case too
[2015/09/26 13:48]  Fawn Starflare: And objectification for some helps work out some of this stuff.
[2015/09/26 13:49]  Ekaterina Urstein: nods in agreement to Goddess about her statements
[2015/09/26 13:50]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: Moni is an objectification in herself
[2015/09/26 13:50]  Ekaterina Urstein: so, Kay, did it answer to your question ?
[2015/09/26 13:50]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I'm sorry to say, no it did not
[2015/09/26 13:50]  A-Toy amazon: Confidence with nothing to back it up is more like narcissism. It has to be paired with a certain amount of honest self evaluation. It's a balance that's difficult to hold sometimes.
[2015/09/26 13:51]  Fawn Starflare: Being that we get aroused by seeing toys forced to cum over and over.
[2015/09/26 13:51]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, it tried
[2015/09/26 13:52]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: i try to imagine myself as a chair, I sit with my arms up, ready to hold yours up and you sit, it is hard for me to keep my own weight and yours up and I feel worse for not being able to do it.
[2015/09/26 13:52]  Fawn Starflare: So do mine
[2015/09/26 13:53]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, still, you would feel like a chair, which is a further step in the objectification
[2015/09/26 13:53]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: yes, that is true Eka.  A broken one
[2015/09/26 13:54]  Ekaterina Urstein: not necessarily.  devices, bondage, can help for that
[2015/09/26 13:54]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: if i could not hold "my wife" in this case scenario, up, what good am I??
[2015/09/26 13:55]  Freja FoxMaiden Riggles: oooh, but i'm light weighted, Mistress :))
[2015/09/26 13:55]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: yes, you are my Love
[2015/09/26 13:56]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS smiles and kisses your head softly
[2015/09/26 13:55]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, you talk about the worst case scenario
[2015/09/26 13:55]  Ekaterina Urstein: what about if you are able to do it ?
[2015/09/26 13:55]  A-Toy amazon: Well, making the effort can be valuable in itself, even if you fail.
[2015/09/26 13:56]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: okay A-toy, I get it
[2015/09/26 13:56]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: how do I grow then in this case
[2015/09/26 13:56]  Fawn Starflare: Success is not of much importance.
[2015/09/26 13:56]  Ekaterina Urstein: it's very personal, it's an inner quest
[2015/09/26 13:56]  Fawn Starflare: We learn mostly when we fail.
[2015/09/26 13:56]  A-Toy amazon: In RL, I am learning to play guitar - have been for some time. If I judged my playing against my heroes, I'd be embarrassed to even pick up the instrument.
[2015/09/26 13:57]  Fawn Starflare: Yep.  Being an object narrows that focus.
[2015/09/26 13:57]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: oh??
[2015/09/26 13:57]  Ekaterina Urstein: the object that suits you is deeply connected to your inner self
[2015/09/26 13:57]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I thought it would be practice
[2015/09/26 13:58]  Freja FoxMaiden Riggles: this inner quest may have much value for some, and may be a wrong path for others, as any D/s practice
[2015/09/26 13:58]  Fawn Starflare: A submissive's first task is to please her mistress.  If I tell her to play for me, it only matters if I am moved by her performance, not if she sounds like Eric Clapton.
[2015/09/26 13:58]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I see Fawn.  Now I get it
[2015/09/26 13:59]  Ekaterina Urstein: well, she asked how it is possible to grow from objectification, hence its answer about inner quest
[2015/09/26 13:59]  Freja FoxMaiden Riggles nods. IF this quest is appropriate
[2015/09/26 13:59]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: my inner quest would be to be perfect for my Mistress, wife
[2015/09/26 14:00]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: when failing, it would hurt me more than to cause me to try harder
[2015/09/26 14:00]  Fawn Starflare: When I told playtoy, a wonderful DJ, that she had to accept any sufficiently indecent offer made during her set, her first thought was of constant bruising of her RL ego.  As my slave she wanted to please me and was not threatened by the opinions of others.  She took that lesson, that she had intrinsic value, into her RL.
[2015/09/26 14:00]  Ekaterina Urstein: inner quest is deeply personal, intimate, hence its linked with others, anyways it is listening to its Goddess
[2015/09/26 14:02]  Ekaterina Urstein: or vision quest but it's an another topic. Yes, 'it' expressed its worries and concerns, but Goddess did reassure it and created a safe environment, it was a very valuable lesson.
[2015/09/26 14:02]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, and I am sure she finds it more agonizing than pleasurable by now!
[2015/09/26 14:02]  Fawn Starflare: Well, ladies. It is midnight for slut doll, and I have spent as much time sitting as is good for my back.
[2015/09/26 14:02]  AdaVenomiss: thank you, Miss Fawn
[2015/09/26 14:03]  Fawn Starflare: So lovely when you make them beg to stop cumming!
[2015/09/26 14:03]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: I am richer for your ideas, views and values, having shared in the thoughts of others, thank you Fawn, your girls and all contributing tonight
[2015/09/26 14:03]  Fawn Starflare bows toward Kay.
[2015/09/26 14:04]  Fawn Starflare: Thank you, Kay. That is a very wonderful compliment.
[2015/09/26 14:04]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS waves my hand to Fawn in an honorable way
[2015/09/26 14:04]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: you deserve it fawn
[2015/09/26 14:04]  Freja FoxMaiden Riggles: Have a wonderful night, Miss Fawn
[2015/09/26 14:04]  ҠѦŶ FoxMaiden ℝίԌԌℒℰS: yes and a good weekend
[2015/09/26 14:05]  Ekaterina Urstein: Be well everyone, it loved the discussion today !

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