Submissive Bill of Rights

[12:03:38] Fawn Starflare: Welcome all. I am going to start the transcript right now.
[12:03:41] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): I require a shrubbery first :p
[12:03:58] Fawn Starflare: Welcome to my series of group chats.
[12:04:13] Yoko Nagai Love (yokonagai): that sounds fun
[12:04:40] Fawn Starflare: They have been erratic because of heath issues. But my support network of care givers is getting stronger and so am I.
[12:04:53] Yoko Nagai Love (yokonagai): I hope you get well soon
[12:05:07] Fawn Starflare: So I am praying I can resume a regular weekly or bi-weekly series of chats once again.
[12:05:54] Yoko Nagai Love (yokonagai): good luck to you
[12:05:54] Fawn Starflare: Today I have some thoughts generated from Lexi's blog post on submissive's rights.
[12:07:15] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): there we go
[12:07:50] Fawn Starflare: While I have ALWAYS agreed on the rights of submissives, I have a feeling that the comprehensive list lex assembled is a bit inflated. More than that, I think there are times when our desires and fantasies run counter to that bill of rights.
[12:08:12] Fawn Starflare: And then there is the difference between
[12:08:22] Yoko Nagai Love (yokonagai): what was the list?
[12:08:47] Fawn Starflare: https://slexi.wordpress.com/2015/02/01/the-rights-that-submissives-have/
[12:13:11] Fawn Starflare: While some read, I will continue my remarks. There is not much more.
[12:13:26] Fawn Starflare: Life in our community is paradoxical.
[12:14:08] Fawn Starflare: We have the need to protect newcomers from harm, yet our fantasies and desires is for the seeming that harm and danger are ever immanent.
[12:14:43] Fawn Starflare: Indeed my owned girls would reject rights, as they desire total control.
[12:15:10] Fawn Starflare: One the other hand, they give up control because they have confidence in me to respect, love and care for them.
[12:15:17] Elisandra Foxdale-Putnam (elisandra.foxdale) smiles as she listens
[12:15:23] -Miss Emily- (emilyenigma) nods, listening
[12:15:32] Fawn Starflare: And sometimes showing love appears, to outsiders, and even some insiders, to be abuse.
[12:16:42] Fawn Starflare: So the thing to keep in mind, is that the bill of sub rights belongs to all, but it gets radically revised as people couple up and come to trust each other. But they are always there as a safety net.
[12:16:58] Fawn Starflare: Now there is another issue that comes into play.
[12:17:12] Fawn Starflare: I have owned a 24/7 live-in slave in real life.
[12:17:18] Fawn Starflare: It's very hard work.
[12:17:39] Lilith Panthar: Yes, they some times forget the burden on the Mistress
[12:17:42] Fawn Starflare: You are taking responsibility for someone life, their, physical and emotional health.
[12:17:59] Fawn Starflare: A lot of care is required and it can be a heavy responsibility.
[12:18:03] Lex Berchot: Strangely enough so does a good submissive for their dominant.
[12:18:35] Fawn Starflare: I find that far too many taking up the role of dominant do not really understand their responsibilities.
[12:18:37] Lex Berchot: I hate the idea that the dominant does all the work and all the submissive supposedly does is, as the popular nomenclature goes "Lie there and take it"
[12:18:49] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): !
[12:18:59] Fawn Starflare: That's not what I am talking about lex.
[12:19:01] Carla Putnam (cyberspy): I dont know what you are doing but mine certainly don't lay there
[12:19:06] Lilith Panthar: Well, a good sub will share the burden
[12:19:25] Lilith Panthar: Then, there are the do-me subs
[12:19:34] -Miss Emily- (emilyenigma) nods
[12:19:36] Lex Berchot nods
[12:19:46] Fawn Starflare: Those are bottoms, not subs.
[12:19:55] Fawn Starflare: there is no submission in "do me"
[12:20:07] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): It sounds more like a demand hehe.
[12:20:09] Lilith Panthar: *laughs* Yes
[12:20:13] -Miss Emily- (emilyenigma) giggles
[12:20:19] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): Kinda the opposite of being submissive.
[12:20:33] Fawn Starflare: exactly.
[12:20:52] Fawn Starflare: They just want to be on the "bottom" of rough or possessive sex.
[12:20:58] Lilith Panthar: I've had some subs that have been bad at reciprocating.
[12:20:58] Rubberella (rubberellaxx) gets the feeling she should be taking notes
[12:21:03] Fawn Starflare: But to continue with my theme....
[12:21:36] Fawn Starflare: So much for RL. Even with a responsible sub sharing the burden, being a RL domme can be daunting.
[12:21:44] Fawn Starflare: It is different in virtual worlds.
[12:22:19] Fawn Starflare: I find that people in VR can be crudely grouped in three categories.
[12:22:48] Fawn Starflare: (1) those with RL experience desiring a continuance of that experience in SL.
[12:23:44] Fawn Starflare: (2) Those with no experience, having and desiring a fantasy. Many of these will never be active in RL, and care not about the requirements of RL BDSM.
[12:24:43] Fawn Starflare: (3) Those who are here purely for the fantasy. For these "safe" and "sane" have little meaning. Even "consensual" is hard to pin down.
[12:25:01] -Miss Emily- (emilyenigma): I've met a lot of #3's
[12:25:10] Fawn Starflare: Yes.
[12:25:44] Fawn Starflare: Depending on why someone is here, a submissive bill of rights may or may not have meaning.
[12:26:15] Fawn Starflare: The most important thing is that we teach newcomes not to take emotional abuse unless they truly desire it.
[12:26:29] Carla Putnam (cyberspy): Lots of people here with one reason in mind. Only focused on one thing.
[12:27:21] Fawn Starflare: And that they know they have the right to demand change if the relationships fail to meet their needs, if the relationship becomes abusive in the failure of attention of caring.
[12:28:26] Fawn Starflare: Well, those are the thoughts and concerns I have had on my mind. and I can tell you are all eager to comment on it all. So I open the floor, but will act as traffic cop if needed.
[12:29:43] Fawn Starflare: Anyone?
[12:29:55] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): I have a few observations which I'd like to share, when I'm done elaborating.
[12:30:03] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): i've got something but it may be a bit random
[12:30:06] Fawn Starflare: Lol, akala. I forgive you in advance if you give in to sleep.
[12:30:17] Fawn Starflare: Go ahead, Ruberella
[12:30:24] -Miss Emily- (emilyenigma) listens
[12:30:30] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): Hehe, thank you ^^ I'm trying to stay up for something to eat too so... I shouldn't pass out :3
[12:31:29] Lex Berchot: I think you hit the nail on the head with that there are several types of people engaging in bdsm - That does go for both sides of the leash so to speak. But I think that for each and everyone it still counts that the submissives have rights - whether they choose to exercise those rights is an entirely different matter. But that is something that is up to the submissive/bottom/person to decide.
[12:31:47] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): so my friend who set me up here has a sub here who is a sub in rl but has an real life and second life mistress
[12:32:48] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): so what do you think on that ?
[12:33:27] Fawn Starflare: It's a common occurence, Rubberella.
[12:33:49] Fawn Starflare: Sometimes people want more than their RL provides and the RL dominant is permissive.
[12:34:29] Fawn Starflare: We also have cases where RL is desired, but not possible. So the SL dominant directs the submissive's RL self bondage.
[12:34:35] Fawn Starflare: I do that with Dragon.
[12:34:44] Fawn Starflare: I run her life in two worlds.
[12:34:51] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): i thought it might be but when you said about it being a continuation for people like that might keep the same domme
[12:34:57] Fawn Starflare: It's what she desires/needs.
[12:35:26] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): did that make sense i skipped about half the sentence out there :)
[12:35:39] Fawn Starflare: The domme may or may not want to continue in SL. Some people find SL a way to switch up, to add variety not possible in RL.
[12:36:09] Fawn Starflare: I think we've all seen various variations on this,
[12:36:40] Fawn Starflare: I think for many SL is a way to break free from safe and sane.
[12:36:55] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): makes sense, after all safe and sane is dull :)
[12:37:33] Lex Berchot: Not really. :)
[12:37:39] Lex Berchot: although I much prefer RACK.
[12:37:51] Fawn Starflare: I do not know. There is a lot that falls under SSC including edge (knife) play, fire play, and many other things.
[12:38:40] Fawn Starflare: In the hands of a responsible dom who has practice in advance of doing things to a person, these things are far from boring, yet safe and maybe even sane.
[12:39:34] Fawn Starflare: Remind me what RACK is, that's basically informed consent knowing there can be unexpected consequences and accidents.
[12:39:44] Lex Berchot: Risk Aware Consensual Kink
[12:39:51] Lilith Panthar: Yes, knowing your sub and experience with the technique makes for an exciting but safe scene.
[12:40:54] Lex Berchot: Risk-aware: Both or all partners are well-informed of the risks involved in the proposed activity.
Consensual: In light of those risks, both or all partners have, of sound mind, offered preliminary consent to engage in said activity.
Kink: Said activity can be classified as alternative sex.
[12:41:28]  ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov) claps
[12:41:47] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): Alright. I have three observations.
[12:41:49] Fawn Starflare: Thank you, Lex. I am much more RACK than SSC, and RACK is more applicable in SL.
[12:41:50] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena) tickles Tessa and waves.
[12:42:05]  ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): ola
[12:42:07] Lex Berchot motions to Miss Anne .. "you have the floor"
[12:42:09]  ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov) and listens
[12:42:13] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): Firstly... I agree with lex in that submissives, as persons, have rights, even in the context of a power exchange relationship. That those rights, given the absence of physical harm inherent to virtual worlds, can be not exercised, is one thing. But that the rights exist is a given.
[12:42:42] Fawn Starflare nods in agreement
[12:42:43] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): Secondly. Accepting the fact that the first point is an inalienable truth, the point of this exercise is to negotiate the amount of power exchanged between dominant and submissive. That negotiation establishes which rights the submissive chooses not to exercise.
[12:43:28] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): Thirdly. The absence of actual, factual physical harm in virtual worlds does not exclude the possibility of emotional damage. Indeed, it's my experience that metaverses such as SL enhance emotional intensity, and emotional damage whether intentional or not is much easier to inflict. The submissives' bill of right is there for submissives to know that is exists, but let's turn it around. Ad dominants, the submissive bill of right is also a rule for us to monitor our submissive to keep him or her from going into behaviors that might be harmful to him and that would violate his or her rights. It is our charge, after all.
[12:44:04] Lex Berchot: Hear hear
[12:44:10] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): I'm done.
[12:44:16] Fawn Starflare: Thank you Anne.
[12:44:25] Fawn Starflare: Point #3 is the critical one.
[12:44:30] Lilith Panthar: Yes, this is so true. People with bad intentions can cause emotional harm here.
[12:44:44] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): i completely agree tbh
[12:44:59] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): Yeah, without a doubt.
[12:44:59] Lilith Panthar: Even with good intentions, you can cause some harm, so it is best to be careful.
[12:45:07]  ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): yes!
[12:45:21] Fawn Starflare: I and others have spend a lot of time repairing emotional and spiritual damage done my those taking dominant roles without caring about the possibility of emotional harm.
[12:45:28] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): Even me with keeping most of my relationships as roleplaying, I've still hurt and been hurt before.
[12:45:42]  ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): voila
[12:45:50] Fawn Starflare: There is a very real difference between a caring, experienced dominant, and some merely trying to play the role.
[12:46:11] Fawn Starflare: And the bill of rights is the way for subs and bottoms to protect themselves.
[12:46:37]  ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): Tosses in an ad for that Bottoming book
[12:47:26] Lilith Panthar: If done right, the bond between the Domme and the sub is a beautiful and very deep connection.
[12:47:50] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): a lot of trust involved
[12:48:03] Lilith Panthar: Yes, much trust and communication
[12:48:25] Fawn Starflare: Yes
[12:48:27] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): May I add to that equation another word.
[12:48:32] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): Respect.
[12:48:40] Fawn Starflare: And long term connections are possible.
[12:48:48] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): Communication and trust, but also... Respect.
[12:48:53] AdaVenomiss: welcome Miss Denise
[12:48:59] Fawn Starflare: I have seen relationships over 8 years old.
[12:49:06] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): you know, i think respect is key
[12:49:11] Lilith Panthar: Yes, never treat the sub like a doormat
[12:49:15] Fawn Starflare: Mine with dragon is 2.5 years. and getting better every day.
[12:49:28] Lilith Panthar: Unless, that is her fantasy. *smiles*
[12:49:41] Lex Berchot: I am approaching 6
[12:49:49] Fawn Starflare smiles at Lilith
[12:50:21] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): Amy and I have been together for 3 years. Going on to 4.
[12:50:21] Fawn Starflare: Congratulations, lexi. Very impressive!
[12:51:20] Lilith Panthar: It is heartening to see such love
[12:51:25] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): You know, it can feel pretty good to be walked on the back, just not full weight or heels involved unless someones light hehe.
[12:51:42] Fawn Starflare giggles
[12:51:52] Fawn Starflare: This is what I love about this group.
[12:52:17] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): lol i don't think you'd want me standing on you in these heels they're very pointy :)
[12:52:28] Fawn Starflare: We have many examples of respectful power exchange relationships and we foster these in our newcomers and newbies.
[12:52:44] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): Yeah, exactly. No heels, and not the full weight on my back and you can walk all over it hehe.
[12:53:26] Fawn Starflare: Akala, I'll have dragon give you a massage next time we see you.
[12:53:36] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): wooo!
[12:53:58] Denise Diesel: These boots are made for walking and that's just what they do, one of these days these boots are gonna walk all over you
[12:54:38] jewel (jewelle.jewell) admires Mistress Denise's boots
[12:54:49] Rubberella (rubberellaxx): you got boobs from your dad ?!?
[12:55:00] Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): Hehe, back issues from my dad.
[12:55:33] Anne Marques (ladyanamarques): ok, this theme got me inspired for a blog post.
[12:56:31] Fawn Starflare: Ladies and girls, if there is no more to be said on our main topic, I will end the transcript here, not that we cannot continue to have fun.
[12:57:47] Fawn Starflare: That's fine. This is one of the reasons I hold the chats. It gets us together and we have fun.