Today's topic are some of the subtle ways subs top from the bottom that are often not recognized as such. The Domme must be alert and subs clue into them selves. These things are not universally bad, but when understood can be used to make things more interesting and fun.
[12:01:17] AdaVenomiss: welcome Miss Fawn, Toy!
[12:01:18] Ellen Cordeaux: Ladies. *smiles and waves at all
[12:01:36] Sara (lilgirlsara.audeburgh): Hello Miss Ellen
[12:02:43] Ellen Cordeaux: Happy New year to you all (kind of late)
[12:03:42] Fawn Starflare: Yes, well happy year to all of you, and it's wonderful to see so many of you here.
[12:05:51] Nora Ivylord: I'm here. Maybe I'll get some tips for topping from the bottom. :)
[12:06:39] Fawn Starflare flicks an imaginary whip at nora.
[12:09:05] Fawn Starflare: Well, to get started, dragon was, once again, the inspiration for the week's topic.
[12:09:36] Fawn Starflare: She did something which I realised later, influenced how I chose to use her on Tuesday morning.
[12:09:47] Fawn Starflare: Or rather, She didn't do something
[12:11:41] Fawn Starflare: English is not dragon's native language, and though she has almost perfect command of daily American, her natural tendency is not to talk much, and the challenges of speaking in English enhance that.
[12:14:22] Fawn Starflare: So it happens that dragon unconsciously fulfills the dictum, good toys should be seen and not heard.
[12:14:42] Fawn Starflare: Except that her body languaged is visible only through the emotes that are very rare.
[12:15:14] Fawn Starflare: And it dawned on me that certain things I had done had elicited no emotes and others had elicited instant remotes.
[12:16:51] Fawn Starflare: And It occurred to me that this is a very subtle way to control one's domme.
[12:17:03] Fawn Starflare: And I decided to act on that realization.
[12:18:06] Fawn Starflare: I suspect, having been topping women in FL and SL for over 20 years that this is a fairly common occurrence. A quite natural one, actually.
[12:18:47] Fawn Starflare: I suspect that every domme here has suspected or reacted to one of these very subtle things at one time or another,
[12:18:59] Fawn Starflare: I do not say it is always bad.
[12:19:38] Fawn Starflare: Here at the Cellar most relationships are equally about an intimate loving relationship as well as power exchange.
[12:20:12] Fawn Starflare: Communications are paramount, we use these subtle forms of communication to indicate what we do and do not like.
[12:20:58] Fawn Starflare: So here in particular these forms of communication have their place, but we also have the option to use them as a basis for play or training.
[12:21:12] Fawn Starflare: Training one's girl to like what we want her to like.
[12:21:26] Fawn Starflare: Shifting her behavior and preferences.
[12:22:06] Fawn Starflare: So I think I've said enough for you all to know what's been on my mind. Lets throw this open to comments from all.
[12:23:10] Nora Ivylord: I get very quiet when Miss does things I don't like or am not interested in.
[12:23:53] Zabrina (zabrinajean): Let me ask If I may please
[12:24:02] Fawn Starflare: go on.
[12:24:04] Denise Diesel: If she doesn't notice, why wouldn't you?
[12:24:50] Fawn Starflare: Yes, zabrina?
[12:25:13] Fawn Starflare: may respond to nora's remark in a moment.
[12:25:14] Zabrina (zabrinajean): to be a good Mistress you have to be strick but loving at the same time. Right?
[12:27:20] Fawn Starflare: Zabrina, there are no hard and fast rules. Here at the Cellar, the women that like this place, that is generally true, however, consider...
[12:28:11] Fawn Starflare: With dragon, and two of my other girls, being cruel, doing things they do not like, sometimes being the sadist, this is my way of expressing love. I am indulging them.
[12:28:40] Fawn Starflare: But in the sense you mean, yes, being loving is awareness and acting on positive ways on that awareness.
[12:29:19] Fawn Starflare: Now there are other sims, other schools of thought in First and Second life.
[12:29:34] Fawn Starflare: For some love does not take part in the equation.
[12:29:45] Fawn Starflare: For some consensuality is not an issue.
[12:29:58] Fawn Starflare: There is no prescriptive formula.
[12:30:15] Fawn Starflare: Each dominant-submissive pairing finds it's own norm.
[12:31:04] Fawn Starflare: However, as I say, after a bit over three years, I observe something in common between most cellar members.
[12:31:53] Fawn Starflare: We are here because we desire loving relationships where power is distributed unilaterally.
[12:32:14] Fawn Starflare: Anyway, I truly would like to hear from everyone here.
[12:32:25] Fawn Starflare: We each have a unique perspective on this.
[12:33:40] Elisandra Foxdale: Mistress Fawn, going back to the subtle signals you were describing, the sub's emotes and when she responds and not, Aren't these technically a form of topping from the bottom, which can generally be tolerated as helpful.......but can also be seized upon by a Mistress to provide an unexpected jolt of a reminder to the sub, and lead to some interesting play.
[12:34:29] Fawn Starflare: Eli, that is exactly my point.
[12:34:38] Zabrina (zabrinajean): Thank you for your answer.
[12:34:50] Denise Diesel: We are here, 1) because we respect each other, sub or Dome 2) The Cellar is a relative small group. We all care for each other. At least me and my sub do.
[12:34:50] Fawn Starflare: And to return to nora going silent.
[12:34:51] Fawn Starflare: Dragon does this, too.
[12:35:27] Fawn Starflare: But the problem is, that silence, is an absence of information. It leaves me as a lover trying to guess what is wrong and how to fix it.
[12:36:28] Fawn Starflare: With toy I have learned to call her on it and ask point blank. The incident that inspired this chat, I knew exactly was going on, and chose to use it to play disciplinarian which resolved toy's problem as well.
[12:35:38] Mrs. Elle (tucsonelle): I agree with you totally, Miss Fawn. I have seen family D/s groups focused only on BDSM/Power and others focused more on mutual sharing loving relationsips. Both family groups are "successful in that they have stayed together. So it is all in what each lady wants
[12:37:15] Denise Diesel: Miss Fawn, we all appreciate what you do here very week. For that, you have my greatest respect. And I think that all of the children listening to you every week, feel the same.
[12:37:35] Taisa (rohgta): totally Miss Denise
[12:37:41] Denise Diesel: Look around, for cellar standards we have a well filled room
[12:38:02] Denise Diesel: they come here to catch up with something
[12:38:23] Fawn Starflare smiles
[12:38:36] Zabrina (zabrinajean): I know I just started here but I would be pleased to be included in this family
[12:39:02] Fawn Starflare: Zabrina, you will notice we have treated you as one of us already.
[12:39:17] Fawn Starflare: As in most groups, you have to recognize and accept that.
[12:39:27] Zabrina (zabrinajean): Thank you very much Miss Fawn
[12:39:47] Fawn Starflare: Getting to know each other, that is a matter that takes time, but we assume most newcomers will fit in with us.
[12:40:58] Mrs. Elle (tucsonelle): Zabrina, as you have already witnessed this group, more than any other I either am in or have been in, we enjoy each others' company and conversation
[12:41:32] Zabrina (zabrinajean): yes I have noticed very much
[12:42:08] Zabrina (zabrinajean): that is why I like it here and my sub will to Mrs Elle
[12:42:00] Fawn Starflare: Denise? This is unexpected.
[12:42:24] Denise Diesel: this girls, is how much I respect Miss Fawns opinion
[12:42:25] Mrs. Elle (tucsonelle) smiles
[12:42:40] Fawn Starflare blushes a bit
[12:42:46] Denise Diesel: I respect her, with all my heart
[12:43:39] Denise Diesel: she may be right, she may be wrong, but she takes the time, once or twice a week, to take you on a trip in sub/Dome reality
[12:43:50] Denise Diesel: and she does it good!
[12:44:03] Fawn Starflare: Thank you, Denise.
[12:42:53] Ellen Cordeaux: I have a bit of a comment on the topic if I may?
[12:43:10] Fawn Starflare: And here I try engage all in these chats so we can have something we do and enjoy together!
[12:43:23] Fawn Starflare: Ellen, sure.
[12:44:15] Ellen Cordeaux: I've often found that Topping from the Bottom can come on very very subtly. You really have to be on point and paying attention as a Domme, in my experience.
[12:44:50] Fawn Starflare: Absolutely. And when observed, how you respond may need to be subtle or overt.
[12:44:58] Ellen Cordeaux: I've often been a bit surprised by it. Like, omg this is what's happening here. *chuckles
[12:45:06] Fawn Starflare: I know I do not want to restrict communication I need.
[12:45:29] Ellen Cordeaux: What's always worked for me has been just a gentle but firm re-direction.
[12:46:00] Ellen Cordeaux: Though on occasion I have had to actually let my sub know I am aware of it, even if she isn't.
[12:46:04] Liandra Hellershanks: It can come on subtly, but it can also come on subconsciously, with the bottom not even realizing what they're doing.
[12:46:07] Fawn Starflare: In real life I can smell, hear, see, taste, and feel my sub's response. Here I only have emotes and speech, so they become much more important to understanding and regulating a scene ... or love making.
[12:46:23] Ellen Cordeaux: Right Lia, that's what I mean.
[12:46:55] Ellen Cordeaux: Yes it's hard here sometimes without being able to see expression and body language and such.
[12:47:09] Ellen Cordeaux: Though after a long time you get in sync here and it's easier.
[12:47:46] Fawn Starflare: Yes. I can often tell when toy is silent because I have sent her deep into her imagination and physicality.
[12:48:34] Fawn Starflare: It takes practice. Sub and domme we need to learn to read people in general and our partners in particular.
[12:48:53] Ellen Cordeaux: And IMO, sometimes a suggestion is just a suggestion. About what to do or such. It's not always TFTB.
[12:49:55] Ellen Cordeaux: That's what I think takes time and practice, learning what is just simple communication vs. what is TFTB. I'm still learning.
[12:50:04] Ellen Cordeaux: TFTB = Topping from the bottom.
[12:50:11] Fawn Starflare: Of course!
[12:48:34] Denise Diesel: If you come here longer, you will notice, that the cellar is a big family. We care for eachother, we miss one another. That makes it such a tight group
[12:48:50] Denise Diesel: I'm happy to be part of it
[12:49:04] Ellen Cordeaux: Right *nods*
[12:49:39] Fawn Starflare: Yes, I have had people acknowledge my absence as well as my presence. When one is depressed having one's absence noticed quickly lays to rest the notion you are not important or unnoticed.
[12:49:51] Denise Diesel: did you hear a sub talking till now?
[12:50:34] Denise Diesel: I always wondered what it was. Now I know
[12:50:35] Fawn Starflare smiles
[12:50:42] Ellen Cordeaux: and that's all!
[12:50:45] Mrs. Elle (tucsonelle): takes out her pencil and makes a note TFTB
[12:51:05] Fawn Starflare: Indeed
[12:57:58] Elisandra Foxdale: I think any TFTB moment offers the best teaching opportunities because they come from within the sub, it originates in the sub's mind. not just a sub's execution of a task or their reaction to something around them. And the domme sub interaction is so much about moulding the mind.
[12:58:29] Fawn Starflare: amen!
[13:02:20] Fawn Starflare: eli, you bring up a good point....
[13:03:31] Elisandra Foxdale: A wonderful discussion as always Miss Fawn
[13:03:31] Fawn Starflare: i had the same question a week ago.
[13:05:44] Fawn Starflare: i would love to follow up on eli's remark.
[13:06:18] Ellen Cordeaux agrees with Eli and nods
[13:06:59] Carla (cyberspy): I think good Dommes do this unconsciously.
[13:07:34] Fawn Starflare: for many of us, BDSM involves or may entirely revolve around training the sub or slave.
[13:07:50] Fawn Starflare: for many ...
[13:10:05] Elisandra Foxdale: my comment was not intended to imply that Mistresses don't do it enough......simply that they are potent moments for me personally, because they often go to the core of submission, and fine tuning of a slave's attitude. Forgive me if it sounded like advice to the Mistresses.
[13:10:19] Fawn Starflare: train of subs takes two forms.
[13:10:57] Fawn Starflare: obedience, attentiveness, observation, these are training of the mind.
[13:13:32] Fawn Starflare: in training a girl, even when train her pussy to bet at certain times, this, too, is training of the mind.
[13:14:05] Fawn Starflare: even training strength and endurance are not solely training of the body.
[13:14:53] Fawn Starflare: only a internal strong, mentally strong person can be a good sub. so training the mind is important.
[13:14:59] Mrs. Elle (tucsonelle) turns to face Miss Fawn
[13:18:41] Fawn Starflare: ok, i suspect some of you are wondering how training the pussy to be wet or endure requires training the mind.
[13:18:44] Mrs. Elle (tucsonelle): smiles
[13:18:51] Fawn Starflare: lol, i like it.
[13:19:12] Carla (cyberspy): it starts in the mind
[13:19:36] Fawn Starflare: precisely.
[13:19:59] Fawn Starflare: would you care to continue caroa .. or eli?
[13:21:48] Ellen Cordeaux: Thank you Fawn for a great conversation, good to see you ladies. Have a lovely evening all
[13:22:06] Fawn Starflare: bye Ellen. thank you.
[13:22:09] Elisandra Foxdale applauds and whistles
[13:23:42] Fawn Starflare: i think my pain situation is under care of a good doctor and i can resume leading this conversation every week.
[13:23:44] Liandra Hellershanks: Thanks for leading the discussion, Fawn!
[13:24:06] Fawn Starflare: having you here was enough, Liandra.
[13:24:26] Uniceundomiel: thank you for the discussion , Fawn
[13:24:58] Zabrina (zabrinajean): It was very good and I hope there will be more like it
[13:26:26] Fawn Starflare: some days the conversation goes longer than others. there is a sort of group will.
[13:28:34] Fawn Starflare: this is fine. i just like to emphasize that though i like to talk at the beginning, this should feel and be like a conversation, not a lecture.