Thursday, May 29, 2014

Wednesday Discussion 5/29/2014

Wednesday Discussion 12:00 Noon led by Miss Fawn
"What to do when you know you have done something wrong and have no idea why your Mistress is so angry with you and what you need to do."
[12:07]  Fawn Starflare: Today's topic, well you have only to look at my toy to see what inspired it.
[12:07]  Fawn Starflare: I am sure the lash marks will heal soon.
[12:07]  A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) caresses the welts
[12:07]  Helena Sitri (plueschie): *giggles* if it gets more full here we need more pillows on the floor
[12:08]  Fawn Starflare: It's no secret that though I only Domme now, I am and always have been a switch.
[12:08]  Fawn Starflare: I have been on both sides of this dilemma.
[12:08]  Fawn Starflare: I will illustrate the situation.
[12:08]  Fawn Starflare: Yesterday when I logged in toy was online but AFK.
[12:09]  Fawn Starflare: When she logged in, she was both blind and gagged, and that is something she had to have noticed.
[12:09]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, toy?
[12:10]  Fawn Starflare: I waited for her to return. She is a very good girl most of the time, and she greeted me with a foot kiss and her pledge of submission to me.
[12:10]  Fawn Starflare: However I had not heard something I was expecting and that she would have said in other circumstance when bindings were added or removed :
[12:10]  Fawn Starflare: "thank you"
[12:11]  Fawn Starflare: So I asked, "what have you forgotten to say?"
[12:11]  Fawn Starflare: Now if she had said 'thank you' or 'I don't know', things would have ended there.
[12:12]  Fawn Starflare: There are many Dommes here, and they will almost certainly add their own ideas when I open the floor for discussion.
[12:13]  Fawn Starflare: However for me, an 'I do not know' will not incur nearly as much corporal punishment as a series of stupid GUESSES.
[12:13]  Fawn Starflare: I've been there, I suspect we've all been there.
[12:13]  Fawn Starflare: We know we are in error, have done something wrong, but we do not know what.
[12:14]  Fawn Starflare: And there is Mistress, and she may even be tapping the palm of her hand with a crop.
[12:14]  Fawn Starflare: "Oh shit, what do I do now."
[12:14]  Fawn Starflare: It's called panic, ladies.
[12:14]  Fawn Starflare: It makes most of us stupid.
[12:15]  San Mauvaise: that is true
[12:15]  Fawn Starflare: However I am willing to bet that for most Dommes, a girl hanging her head and saying , "I do not know, Mistress" will incur less wrath than one wrong guess after another.
[12:15]  Carla (cyberspy): Yes
[12:15]  Fawn Starflare: And I would suggest that this is the more submissive path.
[12:16]  Fawn Starflare: The wild guesses indicate you wish to avoid punishment.
[12:16]  San Mauvaise: yes honesty is generally better
[12:17]  Fawn Starflare: Now my Mistress in my first weeks and months in SL lives for those moments. She said as much to me this morning.
[12:17]  Fawn Starflare: It is a wonderful opportunity both for role play and training.
[12:18]  Fawn Starflare: Especially if the Domme calms her self and responds with self control rather than wrath.
[12:18]  San Mauvaise: maybe some of the subs may relate some similar incidents from their point of view
[12:18]  Fawn Starflare: Whippings and beatings when one is very angry can lead to real injuries, even in SL.
[12:18]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, San, I've said what I had wanted to.
[12:19]  Fawn Starflare: I things Dommes and subs both have things to add.
[12:19]  San Mauvaise: nods
[12:19]  Carla (cyberspy): Luckily we have a happy household
[12:19]  Fawn Starflare: Anyone? You're all typing your stories or questions?
[12:19]  Fawn Starflare smiles @ carla
[12:21]  San Mauvaise: *surely* some subs must have been in similar situations!
[12:21]  Fawn Starflare: It's so quiet I thing I will add some more remarks about dealing with this situation.
[12:21]  Fawn Starflare: er.. quiet
[12:21]  San Mauvaise: quite!
[12:21]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): i think sometimes we try to mindread
[12:21]  San Mauvaise turns to her girl, listening
[12:22]  San Mauvaise: and what is your thinking in doing that tessa?
[12:22]  Fawn Starflare nods @ Tessa "I think it seems that way"
[12:22]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): to appear smarter than we are? to make an impression?
[12:22]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): o to show an expectation perhaps
[12:22]  Fawn Starflare: In school that might work, not with your Mistress
[12:23]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): voila
[12:23]  San Mauvaise: it *can* show a willingness to please and to understand ones Mistress, but it has the side effect of taking away a bit of control
[12:23]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): ahha
[12:23]  Fawn Starflare: Something that came to mind to me is a quote from the beginning of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's first inaugural address in 1933:
[12:24]  Fawn Starflare: "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself"
[12:24]  Fawn Starflare: He then went on to describe as cold, unreason, false impressions causing paralysis.
[12:24]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): it takes a lot of trust to wait for what's coming
[12:24]  San Mauvaise: nods
[12:25]  San Mauvaise: true
[12:25]  Fawn Starflare nods @ tessa, "Indeed it does"
[12:25]  Fawn Starflare: However let me ask you, It's going to come anyway, isn't it?
[12:25]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): yes'm
[12:26]  Fawn Starflare: And I will hazard that most Dommes are like me, our upset rises a notch with each obvious incorrect guess.
[12:26]  San Mauvaise thinks if we could only all be patient for what will happen anyway, how different the world would be
[12:27]  Fawn Starflare: Each wrong guess shows us how we have not successfully done our job.
[12:27]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): ahh
[12:27]  Fawn Starflare nods at san
[12:28]  Fawn Starflare: This may only be me, but after toy made 4 or 5 wrong guesses I was thinking about how I had failed her, failed in her training.
[12:28]  Carla (cyberspy): Or how about when mad to one sub, and it causes a domino effect of being mad at all of them?
[12:28]  Fawn Starflare: I was thinking about how to correct the problem.
[12:28]  A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) sighs
[12:28]  Fawn Starflare: That is raw uncontrolled anger, more like rage.
[12:29]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): ooo
[12:29]  Fawn Starflare: Not a good thing, but may have learned to expect of their owners.
[12:29]  San Mauvaise: yes reflecting anger all around is not good, albeit human
[12:30]  fluttertgal: hello
[12:31]  Fawn Starflare: For the subs... this situation occurs the first thing you must do is look at the context, examine all that has happened. It might then be obvious what the lapse is. In my person experience, my thinking in such situations was far too shallow.
[12:31]  Fawn Starflare: San, that puts me in mind of toy and I.
[12:31]  San Mauvaise: yes, how Fawn?
[12:31]  Fawn Starflare: She desperately desires to be of service.
[12:32]  Fawn Starflare: And in her mind/fantasy that means being there as a whipping girl for me to work out my anger, upset, whatever.
[12:32]  Fawn Starflare: Sometimes I indulge her. It makes her feel useful.
[12:32]  San Mauvaise: nods
[12:33]  Fawn Starflare: Most of the time I am far to conscious of being in relationship and act more civilly.
[12:33]  Carla (cyberspy): nods as well
[12:33]  Fawn Starflare: There are a lot of factors. Sometimes this is a role play both for sub and Domme.
[12:35]  Fawn Starflare: When I said my thinking was far to shallow, it was to illustrate one effect of PANIC and FEAR.
[12:36]  Fawn Starflare: An a sub is fearful (usually) when her domme asks her what she forgot.
[12:36]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): Miss Fawn.. it is this girl's opinion only that No Mistress should ever use her submissive to work out any form of anger. To do so is to harm your submissive and yourself.
[12:37]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): you will notice Miss Fawn that I put your submissive first because it is your submissive you are responsible for.
[12:37]  San Mauvaise: nods
[12:37]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): I agree
[12:37]  Virala Boardman (viralab): I do have to agree with that
[12:38]  Virala Boardman (viralab): I log if that angry
[12:38]  Fawn Starflare: Talia, I tend to agree with you. However...
[12:38]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): A Domme shouldn't let things scale up to that point.
[12:38]  Fawn Starflare: much of a BDSM relationship involves RP and not just in well defined play situations.
[12:38]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): neither a sub, of course
[12:38]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): to put it more bluntly. Any Mistress that needs to use their submissive to alleviate anger does not have the right to use the title Mistress and should not have any submissives at all.
[12:39]  San Mauvaise: yes not RPed anger, of course, but real anger and BDSM do not mix well
[12:39]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): have any here heard of the term Aftercare?
[12:39]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, talia, but you missed my point in even bringing that up.
[12:39]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): exactly, San
[12:39]  Fawn Starflare: We all have, Talia. Why not speak about why this is such a hot issue for YOU.
[12:40]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): RPing anger is dangerous itself and can lead to things that you don't want to happen
[12:40]  Fawn Starflare: That's like saying we should not RP a rape, yet it is sometimes a desired RP.
[12:40]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): I have been on that end Miss Fawn. I never wish to be so again and I will speak out against it when I hear about it.
[12:40]  Virala Boardman (viralab): No actually she is talking about Real anger Fawn
[12:41]  Virala Boardman (viralab): Not rp anger
[12:41]  Virala Boardman (viralab): or rp rape
[12:41]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): it is a dangerous RP though, and one that should only be done with strict controls by both parties.
[12:41]  San Mauvaise: yes of course it *should* be clear whether it is RPed or real
[12:41]  Fawn Starflare: I still say, Talia, that your heat and insistence in prolonging this point is about something that happened to you.
[12:41]  Fawn Starflare: Why not speak about it in specific, rather than generalities.
[12:41]  Kayra the Imp (kayra.rae): safe, sane and consensual...
[12:42]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): no Miss not turn this around. SSC is what we all must live by in the world we live in.
[12:42]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): it's something that could happen to anyone, Fawn.
[12:42]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): simple as that.
[12:42]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): RPing anger is not good at all. and real anger is worse.
[12:42]  Fawn Starflare: Talia, it is not so simple.
[12:42]  Fawn Starflare: You've been hurt so it seems that way.
[12:43]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): what has happened to me or not is not at discussion Miss Fawn
[12:43]  Fawn Starflare: You are hijacking my discussion, and I do not appreciate it.
[12:43]  Virala Boardman (viralab): Talia
[12:43]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): perhaps it is not always anger, but a way to implement discipline
[12:43]  Fawn Starflare: On the other hand it's toy's bed time. Maybe I should let this rage on and go put her to bed.
[12:43]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): I will remain quiet then
[12:43]  Virala Boardman (viralab): some do like rp anger
[12:44]  Virala Boardman (viralab): but I do agree it should be clear it's rp
[12:44]  Fawn Starflare: Talia, I have been a rape counselor. I cannot tell you how many stories I have heard.
[12:45]  Fawn Starflare: Yet despite the harsh realities, people have their fantasies, and in BDM relationships we try to live the fantasy with a controlled and acceptable level of risk.
[12:45]  Fawn Starflare: But any relationship is a risk.
[12:45]  Fawn Starflare: There are so many ways to be deeply hurt: emotionally, spiritually, and physically.
[12:46]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): and each dynamic is different
[12:46]  Fawn Starflare: If we are so hurt we cannot accept any risk, one cannot have a meaningful relationship.
[12:46]  Fawn Starflare: Precisely.
[12:46]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): nods at Tessa
[12:46]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): trying to set standards at a D/s relationship is futile
[12:47]  Fawn Starflare: Look, ladies, my joy is in giving pleasure.
[12:47]  Fawn Starflare: I can RP a very insane sadist for a girl I love, but that is only because I desire to indulge her fantasy.
[12:47]  Carla (cyberspy): nods
[12:48]  Fawn Starflare: And ultimately most of use who are dommes want to give joy, not harm.
[12:48]  Fawn Starflare: Even the sadists are doing it to provide mutual pleasure unless they are a bit sociopathic.
[12:49]  Carla (cyberspy): I have a gf on here who is a sadist, and she is perfectly nice when not in RP.
[12:49]  Fawn Starflare: Any RP I do whether it's a gently cuddle or a whipping, has the potential to hurt someone. So each couple decides how mush risk they can live with.
[12:49]  Fawn Starflare: Exactly, carla.
[12:50]  Carla (cyberspy): I just look at it as being wonderfully creative and imaginative. She makes many subs very happy.
[12:51]  A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): please have a good day, everyone
[12:51]  Fawn Starflare: I have such a hard time when I hear about rape in the news. I get so angry my adrenalin goes through the roof.
[12:51]  A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) nuzzles to Goddess and poofs off
[12:51]  Fawn Starflare: But you know the first time I was RPed rape I loved it because it was clear what was happening.
[12:53]  Fawn Starflare smiles
[12:54]  Fawn Starflare: Now that things have calmed down, I think we can approach talia's point more calmly.
[12:54]  Fawn Starflare: DBSM ought not be a place for a dominant to work out his or her anger.
[12:55]  San Mauvaise: nods
[12:55]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): ツ
[12:55]  Fawn Starflare: When I am upset , my relationship with toy is to talk, not play.
[12:55]  Fawn Starflare: Not everyone can handle it that way.
[12:56]  Fawn Starflare: I find I cannot adhere to SSC, safe, sane, consentual.
[12:56]  Fawn Starflare: I do adhere to mutually accept risk.
[12:56]  Fawn Starflare: And bondage can do harm.
[12:56]  Fawn Starflare: In RL I once had my girls wrist dislocate during a suspension.
[12:56]  Fawn Starflare: That is one of the reasons for suspension cuffs, safety.
[12:57]  Fawn Starflare: But just binding someone's wrists together incurs risk.
[12:57]  Fawn Starflare: We find this an acceptable risk.
[12:57]  Fawn Starflare: Even a rope around the neck can be acceptable if one trusts the dominant.
[12:58]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, we all see people who claim to be Mistress or Masters and haven't a clue what it's about.
[12:58]  San Mauvaise tries her best to look cluefull
[12:59]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): lol
[12:59]  Fawn Starflare: Dominants need to be trained just as submissives do. too often they are not and bad things happen.
[12:59]  Fawn Starflare: I will stop. Everyone has been respectfully quiet. I apologize.
[12:59]  Carla (cyberspy): It's good to have mentors
[13:00]  Fawn Starflare: This is a hot issue, it effects me deeply.
[13:01]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): so the subbie has trust and patience, admits ignorance
[13:01]  Helena Sitri (plueschie) just try to listen and follow the discussion.
[13:01]  Fawn Starflare: Talia, I apologive for, in effect, telling you to shut up. That's never good and for a moment I could not see other options to handle something that seemed to me to be getting out of hand.
[13:02]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): nods to Miss Fawn in acknowledgment
[13:02]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): ty Miss Fawn
[13:02]  Fawn Starflare: Thank you for for understanding, Talia.
[13:03]  San Mauvaise: and that underlines an important point Fawn
[13:03]  Fawn Starflare listens
[13:03]  San Mauvaise: that us Dommes can get things wrong, and we should then just admit that
[13:03]  Fawn Starflare: amen
[13:03]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): and handling emotions as they come up is tricky
[13:03]  San Mauvaise: nods
[13:03]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): nods
[13:04]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): research shows that anger is the first/greatest/most often demonstrated emotion in FB and twitter
[13:04]  San Mauvaise: ok
[13:04]  San Mauvaise: interesting
[13:05]  Kara Draconis (karalieva): <<<proud to not have an account at either
[13:05]  Fawn Starflare: The first time I made a public apology was back in November 1992. everyone on that BBS (pre web) was stunned to see a Domme admit error and apologize to a sub.
[13:05]  Fawn Starflare: It should not be that way. It should be a matter of course.
[13:05]  Carla (cyberspy): I was very much into the BBSs as well, and futher back then that 1983-1984
[13:06]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): What it comes down to is that we all are human and make mistakes. either as a submissive or a Dominant or just as a regular person.
[13:06]  San Mauvaise: nods
[13:06]  San Mauvaise: except me, of course....
[13:06]  Virala Boardman (viralab): yep
[13:06]  San Mauvaise: ...ooops!
[13:06]  Virala Boardman (viralab): lol
[13:06]  Carla (cyberspy): I had some subs the other day be shocked that I was nice.
[13:06]  Fawn Starflare: I was thinking about, fantasizing about bondage and submission and slavery back in 1966, but I was not able to tell that to another person until 1992.
[13:07]  Fawn Starflare: That's a long time to be locked in closet.
[13:07]  San Mauvaise: nods
[13:07]  San Mauvaise: yes!
[13:07]  Carla (cyberspy): The Dark Closet
[13:07]  Fawn Starflare smiles @ carla and nods.
[13:07]  Carla (cyberspy): sounds like a good book
[13:08]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): :)
[13:08]  San Mauvaise thinks about locking subs in closets
[13:08]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov) eyebrow perks up!
[13:08]  Talia Raven (taliaraven): been there actually
[13:09]  Carla (cyberspy): I can do that, Good idea
[13:09]  Fawn Starflare: hehehehe
[13:09]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov) sighs
[13:09]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): so when in doubt, say 'i don't know'
[13:10]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): or i'm sorry :)
[13:10]  Fawn Starflare: I think it is an important thing for a dominant to admit their fallibility to a sub. I think it promotes trust when a girl knows her dominant is concerned about going too far. Apologizing for one's error further promotes trust in my opinion.
[13:10]  San Mauvaise: yes indeed
[13:10]  Sin Dielli (sin.vesta): listens
[13:10]  Fawn Starflare: Hence I use myself as an example both of what is right and what is wrong.
[13:11]  San Mauvaise raises an eyebrow at tessa
[13:11]   ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): o0
[13:11]  Fawn Starflare: I cannot know what's in anyone else's mind.

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