Thursday, May 15, 2014

Discussion Wed Noon 5/14/2014

Chats with Miss Fawn
Wednesday, 14  May 2014, noon SLT

Augmented Reality, Totally Independent world, or something in between or other. What's your view of SL and how does it affect the way you do BDSM in SL? Conversely, what you want to do or get out of BDSM in SL probably affects your perception of SL. Regardless, we often do things in SL we couldn't do in RL due to issues of physical safety and other concerns. Though physical safety can be ignored, a bad scene or relationship can do emotional or spiritual harm in a variety of ways. How does one inoculate herself against harm before entering into a scene or relationship?

[12:09]  Fawn Starflare: The topic today was suggested by an 8 year old block entry that tessa pointed out to me.
[12:10]  Fawn Starflare: And while those issues of what should SL have long since been settles, the title suggests something that I think about all the time with connection to the BDSM lifestyle in SL.
[12:11]  Mermaid Stormcrow waits for Miss Fawn to continue.
[12:12]  Fawn Starflare: Now I want to make a disclaimer before I jump right in. The there are at least two different issues which one could spend a lot of time. There are deep philosophical considerations. However they are tangential to what I have in mind and I will cut off discussion that will lead in to philosophical pondering.
[12:12]  Fawn Starflare: I was trying to think how to word that.
[12:13]  Fawn Starflare: SL is for us a wonderful virtual world.
[12:14]  Fawn Starflare: Now this can and does mean many things. Some see SL as a world apart, cut off from the "First World".
[12:14]  Fawn Starflare: The laws of nature need not apply, nor social conventions, nor any of the things upon which our first life is built.
[12:15]  Fawn Starflare: Now this has an impact to BDSM.
[12:15]  Elisandra Foxdale: no calls of nature
[12:15]  Fawn Starflare: For instance. We leave girls locked up for times we would never do in RL.
[12:15]  Fawn Starflare giggles
[12:16]  Fawn Starflare: Of course, my attitute about that is I will happily watch you pee and humiliate yourself.
[12:16]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): oooo
[12:16]  Mermaid Stormcrow blinks
[12:17]  Fawn Starflare: Sorry, mer.
[12:17]  Mermaid Stormcrow will not have any bio breaks during this lecture!
[12:17]  Fawn Starflare: Hehehe Yep.
[12:17]  Elisandra Foxdale presses her legs together
[12:18]  Fawn Starflare: But other than that. There are many things in SL that we do that we would not do in RL due to issues of health and safety.
[12:18]  Akala Tanara (slyan.alena) giggles.
[12:19]  Fawn Starflare: Leaving somebody suspended by their wrists for long periods in RL, cause changes to all the joints from the wrist to the shoulder and neck.
[12:19]  Fawn Starflare: These can be quite harmful even debilitating.
[12:19]  Fawn Starflare: However it is not something we worry about here.
[12:20]  Mermaid Stormcrow nods
[12:20]  Fawn Starflare: Notices all the subs and slaves who now need to pee since it was mentioned.
[12:20]  Fawn Starflare: Interesting psychological effect.
[12:21]  Elisandra Foxdale: So the problem is with RL miss Fawn?
[12:22]  Fawn Starflare: No the problem is not with RL or SL.
[12:22]  Fawn Starflare: The issue here is that a virtual world, SL or any other.
[12:22]  Fawn Starflare: Even an exchange of IMs can be a virtual world.
[12:23]  Mermaid Stormcrow nods
[12:23]  Fawn Starflare: In a virtual world we are free to pursue any fantansy we choose.
[12:23]  Fawn Starflare: Any relationship we choose.
[12:23]  Mermaid Stormcrow: in anonymity
[12:24]  Fawn Starflare: If your fantasy is to experience the so called "white slave trade" be kidnapped and forced into prostitution for a life time, you can do that.
[12:24]  Fawn Starflare: It's not just anonymity.
[12:24]  Fawn Starflare: It's more than that.
[12:24]  Denise Diesel is Online
[12:25]  Fawn Starflare: You can have a prehensile tail and use it to fuck your slave. Or you can cut off her arms.
[12:25]  Fawn Starflare: Health and physical safety go out the window.
[12:26]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov) rubs my arms
[12:26]  Bythe Fall is Offline
[12:26]  Fawn Starflare: SSC, RACK, CCC (safe, sane, consensual; risk aware consensual kink; committed, compassionate, consensual)
[12:27]  Fawn Starflare: These things, so very, very important in RL, are almost non issues in SL.
[12:27]  Fawn Starflare: The one issue is the mental and spiritual well being of the parties involved.
[12:28]  Fawn Starflare: The one thing that bothers us is the sort of emotional damage that can be done by a sociopathic domme or sub who cares nothing about the people they interact with.
[12:28]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): welcome Miss Denise, Miss Fawn is talking about immersion and augmentation
[12:29]  Fawn Starflare: So the real question is why are you doing BDSM in SL.
[12:29]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): safety
[12:30]  Denise Diesel: not possible in rl
[12:30]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): to learn before going into RL
[12:30]  Fawn Starflare: I have years of RW experience, but my body and lack partners prohibit me. Here in SL this is a non-issue so long as I can sit at my commuter.
[12:30]  Fawn Starflare: computer
[12:30]  Fawn Starflare: I commute from my computer, but that does not excuse my brain for the word swap.
[12:31]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): teehee
[12:31]  Fawn Starflare: So this is one axis of the discussion. Why are you here? What is it about a virtual world that brings you here?
[12:32]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): meet all you awesome people
[12:32]  Denise Diesel: look at the tools downstairs. have one ever used that stuff in rl?
[12:32]  Fawn Starflare: Some of it.
[12:32]  Elisandra Foxdale: Yes Miss Diesel
[12:32]  Fawn Starflare: But that is the point.
[12:32]  Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): Some, for sure if not all.
[12:32]  Mermaid Stormcrow: relationships
[12:33]  Denise Diesel: sl is a kind of fantasy world
[12:33]  Fawn Starflare nods
[12:33]  Fawn Starflare: all these are good answers.
[12:33]  Denise Diesel: one can escape from rl, only for a moment and fantasies about things one can't ever do in rl
[12:34]  Fawn Starflare: Now I took this title of Immersion vs Augmentation.
[12:34]  Denise Diesel: hi San, Mermaid
[12:34]  San Mauvaise waves in a friendly way to everyone
[12:34]  Fawn Starflare: Many of us come and we want an experience that is close to what we could experience in RL. There are many reasons for this. Maybe we want to try something here and see what it feels like emotionally before doing it in real.
[12:35]  Denise Diesel: the worst thing I've ever done in rl, is use some ti-raps and a brutal dildo on my gf
[12:35]  Fawn Starflare: In this sense, SL is used to mimic RL, but we augment it.
[12:35]  Elisandra Foxdale: For me it's flows together. I'm active in rl and active here, and they are not so different. In both places I'm interested in the minds of other and exploring fantasies.
[12:35]  Fawn Starflare: Bye Sophiee. Nice to meet you.
[12:35]  Mermaid Stormcrow nods to Miss Fawn's comment.
[12:36]  Denise Diesel: I'm having fun here.
[12:36]  Elisandra Foxdale: I can meet people here i couldn't meet in rl.
[12:36]  Denise Diesel: it's a little escape from rl and it relaxes ne
[12:36]  Denise Diesel: me
[12:37]  Fawn Starflare: The augmentations may be holding positions longer than would be safe in RL. Exploring permanent body modifications, seeing what it feels like to be totally brutalized with out having any say in what happens.
[12:37]  Denise Diesel: always remember, there are PEOPLE at the other side of that screen ;-)
[12:37]  Fawn Starflare: In RL no one truly wants to be raped, but in SL it safe to try it out.
[12:37]  San Mauvaise: nods
[12:37]  Denise Diesel: sure Fawn. good point
[12:37]  Fawn Starflare: The other extreme is not RL augmented, but something totally other.
[12:38]  Fawn Starflare: We have so called full immersion pets in SL.
[12:38]  Fawn Starflare: Not only are they forced to be have like a specific animal. That is done in RL.
[12:38]  Fawn Starflare: But they cannot speak. It stops being an option as it is enforced in a way impossible in RL.
[12:39]  Fawn Starflare: And that itself is another issue. If what you want to explore is the psychological reshaping. Then you want to train that puppy to not speak. And that process is what puppy and mistress desire.
[12:40]  Fawn Starflare: Eli's life in SL is like this, for instance.
[12:40]  Jeniveve Joubert: hello
[12:40]  Denise Diesel: If puppy wants to, she can have it.
[12:40]  Fawn Starflare: On the other hand if you want the pet to be truly the pet, you take away the ability to understand speech.
[12:40]  Denise Diesel: in my case, I would be bored, very soon
[12:41]  San Mauvaise: yes but for some it is the very frustration/boredom they want
[12:41]  Fawn Starflare: So the so called full immersion puppy, can never stand, never hear anything but a few words and emotes, and never speak, only bark and whine.
[12:43]  Fawn Starflare: So my point today is for us to talk about the infinitude of different ways to us SL to achieve our purposes. And how we help each other from being hurt emotionally. (I don't mean, she dumped me), but real emotional harm.
[12:43]  Elisandra Foxdale dips her head to Miss Jeniveve
[12:44]  Fawn Starflare: Anyway, I've talked way longer than usual, with the interlocutions and all. I will sit back and let you all talk.
[12:45]  Mermaid Stormcrow thinks about the conversation...
[12:46]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): so we respect each perspective, and it's good to clarify when we select a domme/sub...immersion or augmentation
[12:47]  San Mauvaise: though many navigate instinctively between them
[12:47]  Jeniveve Joubert: oh I am too late for the discussion :(
[12:47]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): for example when i wished everyone a Happy Mother's Day, it was brought to my attention that it is not Mother's Day in SL
[12:48]  Elisandra Foxdale: it isn't?
[12:48]  Elisandra Foxdale: why not?
[12:49]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): well we are not really Mothers?
[12:49]  Elisandra Foxdale: I wondered why it wasn't mother's day in sl?
[12:49]  San Mauvaise: yes we do have freedoms to explore differences in SL, but they only have meaning though *some* connection (albeit weak) with our RL experiences
[12:49]  Fawn Starflare sighs
[12:49]  San Mauvaise: but eli - EVERYday is mother's day in SL
[12:49]  Jeniveve Joubert: because perhaps Mothers day IN uK is in different month not sure about rest of Europe
[12:49]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): aww
[12:49]  San Mauvaise: augmented mothers' day
[12:50]  Elisandra Foxdale: it is, but does that mean sl doesn't have holidays?
[12:50]  Fawn Starflare: Well you know us Egocentric Americans. We assume everyone celebrates when we do.
[12:50]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov) grins at Mistress :)
[12:50]  Mermaid Stormcrow: well if they have the same holidays as RL, then we are crossing over.
[12:50]  Jeniveve Joubert: well some do coincide
[12:50]  Fawn Starflare: You know though, this brings up something I was thinking about in connection with this topic.
[12:50]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): we have rezz day, and SL Bday
[12:51]  Fawn Starflare: I have been at scenes and have some RL know it all tell me something is not safe.
[12:51]  Elisandra Foxdale: everyone and everything crosses over.. No one can separate rl and sl or other worlds
[12:51]  Fawn Starflare: Well I've played in RL, I know what's safe. But I am not here to play like that.
[12:52]  Fawn Starflare: One could argue that doing things that are not safe in RL might encourage people to try them in RL.
[12:52]  San Mauvaise: yes its emotional and psychological safety that matters here, which can be hard to judge
[12:52]  Fawn Starflare: But the truth is there is no way to protect someone from themselves.
[12:52]  Jeniveve Joubert: that is a definite danger I would agree Fawn
[12:53]  Fawn Starflare: Agreed, San. It's the central thrust of this discussion, I hope.
[12:55]  Elisandra Foxdale: So we need to be careful. And if we want to do amputations, do them only in SL please.
[12:55]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): so how can one prevent harm, protect against harm
[12:55]  San Mauvaise: for example if someone has a trauma in their past it is important to know that
[12:55]  Fawn Starflare grins at Eli, "Indeed. Obvious, but sometimes it good to state."
[12:55]  AnnieGotter: yea, aug. technology isn't quite up to snuff yet
[12:55]  Jeniveve Joubert: and soo many in here do real harm
[12:56]  Fawn Starflare: Role play is something that is pretty much up to the participants.
[12:57]  Elisandra Foxdale: It is, it's also good to be at the Cellar, where by and large the quality of the group is well above average, and you're likely go get some feedback if you are in danger or if you are maybe approaching endangering someone else.
[12:57]  Fawn Starflare: You know when I leash toy, sometimes I will take the time to go through the actions.
[12:57]  Fawn Starflare approaches toy with a leash chain and a small padlock.
[12:57]  San Mauvaise: nods
[12:57]  Fawn Starflare: Then is she's paying attention, she will raise her chin or I will slap her.
[12:57]  San Mauvaise: rooting the actions in reality
[12:58]  Jeniveve Joubert: watches
[12:58]  Fawn Starflare: But sometimes that fiddling detail is not were we want to be, so we ignore it.
[12:58]  Mermaid Stormcrow shivers
[12:58]  Fawn Starflare: Options not possible in RL.
[12:58]  Fawn Starflare: Each couple decided on just how real they want their emotional experience to be.
[12:58]  Jeniveve Joubert: well not as easily for sure
[12:59]  Elisandra Foxdale: here, instead of anesthesia, a simple adjective will do, as in "Painlessly removes the offending limb"
[12:59]  Mermaid Stormcrow: eli...laughter
[13:00]  Akala Tanara (slyan.alena): Can't say I've run into anyone that wants to do something like that though.
[13:00]  Fawn Starflare: Yes. No need for a sterile environment, paying of the surgeon and anesthetist, etc.
[13:00]  Fawn Starflare: I have, akala.
[13:00]  Fawn Starflare: In fact I have tried it with toy, even.
[13:00]  Fawn Starflare: But I remember that fantasy from 40 years ago.
[13:01]  Fawn Starflare: A good armbinder, seen from the front it is as if the wearer had no arms.
[13:01]  Jeniveve Joubert: bit out of my depth with such fantasies
[13:01]  Fawn Starflare: So by extension why not remove the arms and do some rebuilding to make it look natural.
[13:01]  Fawn Starflare: Of course!
[13:02]  Mermaid Stormcrow nods.
[13:02]  Fawn Starflare: Someone with the same level of emotional commitment, similar, well complementary, fantasies, etc.
[13:02]  Fawn Starflare: It is a choice each couple or family makes for itself.
[13:02]  Fawn Starflare: Moreover it is constantly changing.
[13:02]  San Mauvaise: nods
[13:03]  Jeniveve Joubert: to find that right person is the challenge
[13:03]  Fawn Starflare: This is true in RL, too. But in RL as our fantasies get darker, there is a point was which we ought not go.
[13:03]  San Mauvaise: if one goes too far from reality, its somehow stops *feeling* real
[13:03]  San Mauvaise: and can be in danger of being a cartoon
[13:03]  Fawn Starflare: In SL if the partners agree, then it's ok.
[13:03]  Jeniveve Joubert: we have all seen that I think in here
[13:04]  Fawn Starflare: But it is not ok to go up to a randomly some submissive, agree to play and just cut off her arms.
[13:04]  Elisandra Foxdale: I agree Miss San, the extreme is in a lot of ways safer than the less extreme because the extreme nature of it labels it as unreal
[13:04]  Jeniveve Joubert: :(
[13:04]  Fawn Starflare: That would be an emotional violation.
[13:04]  Fawn Starflare: That would constitute a true rape in SL because the possibility of lasting psychological harm is there.
[13:05]  Jeniveve Joubert: I think it would be a moral one as well
[13:06]  Fawn Starflare: San, I think any RP can turn into a cartoon. A lot depends on our commitment to some sort of psychological reality. However, I've not given it a whole lot of thought.
[13:06]  Fawn Starflare: It's just not happened to me.
[13:07]  San Mauvaise: yes instinctively, given enough detail one can keep the belief
[13:07]  Mermaid Stormcrow: thank you for facilitating this discussion Miss Fawn, RL is calling me.
[13:07]  San Mauvaise: a bit like writing a novel, i suspect
[13:07]  Akala Tanara (slyan.alena) is pretty much anime.
[13:07]  San Mauvaise: and the emotional/ attachment to the person you are interacting with
[13:10]  Fawn Starflare: Jen, you make me wonder.
[13:10]  Jeniveve Joubert: oh?
[13:10]  Fawn Starflare: There are so many different ways to "help."
[13:10]  Jeniveve Joubert: we each have our own thoughts and ways
[13:10]  Fawn Starflare: Tessa, you have the transcript?
[13:11]  Fawn Starflare: Indeed!
[13:11]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): yes Miss
[13:11]  Fawn Starflare does a Spock eyebrow arch.
[13:12]  San Mauvaise: ah I do that a lot in RL Fawn - soooo useful
[13:12]  Fawn Starflare: I have a feeling I will lead us through parts of this discussion again. There are a few specific issues that could use more directed exploration.
[13:12]  Jeniveve Joubert: what exactly did I say you found questionable
[13:13]  Fawn Starflare: For instance what are the sorts of emotional, psychic, or spiritual harm in SL BDSM. how do we protect ourselves and educate others?
[13:13]  Jeniveve Joubert: nods
[13:13]  San Mauvaise: er she was just interested in the many ways a sub could "help" you Jen
[13:13]  Fawn Starflare: No, Jen, what you said was fine.
[13:14]  Fawn Starflare nods at San.
[13:14]  Jeniveve Joubert: :)
[13:15]  San Mauvaise: yes - part of the protection is being part of a community such as this, so there are others one can talk to about anything that worries one, and see what is "normal"
[13:15]  Jeniveve Joubert: normal?? now thats a topic in itself
[13:16]  Elisandra Foxdale: I think the emotional challenges and dangers, and the most intense emotions often come around from triggers that have nothing to do with rape or amputation or any other particularly shocking behaviour.
[13:16]  San Mauvaise: heheheh - well in this case - what might actually be emotionally abusive and what is OK as play
[13:16]  San Mauvaise listens to eli
[13:16]  Fawn Starflare: I would phrase that, is something in the range of generalyl expected behaviors.
[13:16]  Fawn Starflare: .
[13:16]  San Mauvaise: do you have an example eli?
[13:17]  San Mauvaise: thanks
[13:17]  San Mauvaise: I have to go
[13:17]  Fawn Starflare: Take care San. I am very glad you came.
[13:17]  San Mauvaise ruffles tessa's hair
[13:17]  San Mauvaise: be good tessa!
[13:17]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov) takes your hand to affix a kiss :)
[13:17]  San Mauvaise laughs
[13:17]  Jeniveve Joubert: I think all of those examples must go back to knowing the persons history or damage can be done
[13:18]  Elisandra Foxdale: Not really, But I feel many of us enjoy sl because it is such a rich tapestry, and can be very emotional. and we enjoy it for the good emotions and also the challenging ones.
[13:19]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): so we protect ourselves with community....
[13:19]  Fawn Starflare: I know that it is possibles for subs to harm a Mistress emotionally, especially once an emotional bond forms. However most of the cases I've encountered go the other way around.
[13:20]  Fawn Starflare: The most common issue I encounter is subs who have been abandoned many times.
[13:21]  Jeniveve Joubert: that is more the case I would say, used and tossed aside
[13:21]  Fawn Starflare: Melody and I have spent a lot of time working with such subs, and Melody was one when I fist encountered her.
[13:21]  Elisandra Foxdale: nods..........i guess i'm saying we are drawn to that emotional intensity which holds dangers, and that those dangers are probably as great or greater than the dangers from trauma from rape or amputation.
[13:21]  Fawn Starflare: There is an aspect of BDSM where that is to be expected.
[13:22]  Fawn Starflare: However if the submissive is expecting someone who will care for her when the pain and humiliation are over, then there is a problem.
[13:22]  Melody (j3nny.fanshaw): abandonment can change how people react on even a basic level making things more difficult
[13:22]  Elisandra Foxdale: people go rock climbing too. we seek thrills.
[13:22]  Jeniveve Joubert: not necessarily there are all different degrees
[13:22]  Fawn Starflare: It's all about Acceptable risk, and managed risk.
[13:22]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): ahhh
[13:23]  Fawn Starflare: Meaning that some risks we take, others we don't.
[13:23]  Jeniveve Joubert: the idea of forced rape is not one I would take so lightly
[13:23]  Fawn Starflare: I have been dumped I don't know how many times in SL and RL.
[13:24]  Fawn Starflare: The thing for me is that after the hurt I do not shut down, but make a conscious effort to make myself vulnerable.
[13:24]  Fawn Starflare: Without that vulnerablility and relationship is but surface deep.
[13:25]  Fawn Starflare: Jen, I don't think we do take rape lightly.
[13:25]  Jeniveve Joubert: to close yourself off emotionally makes any relaitonship rather senseless
[13:25]  Jeniveve Joubert: No, I just speak from personal experience in sl
[13:25]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): onoo
[13:25]  Fawn Starflare nods to Jen.
[13:25]  Fawn Starflare: Experience is all!
[13:26]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): it is hard to 'get back on the horse' so to speak
[13:26]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): time and that special someone can really heal
[13:26]  Fawn Starflare: Yes, Tessa. It gets easier in time, but a lot depends on the depth of the wound.
[13:26]  Jeniveve Joubert: when a noob I was caught alone one nite and a man tried to force himself on me, and I was trapped took min to realize to turn off the puter
[13:26]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): ooo
[13:27]  Fawn Starflare: Indeed, Jen.
[13:27]  Jeniveve Joubert: the feeling was real soo real was days before I dared return
[13:27]  Fawn Starflare: You can always TP, log off, or even turn off the computer.
[13:27]  Jeniveve Joubert: and a bad experience in Gor has further shaped my opinions
[13:27]  Fawn Starflare:  But even if you do, you are still left feeling assaulted.
[13:27]  Jeniveve Joubert: you are
[13:27]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): very much, like in RL
[13:27]  Jeniveve Joubert: the emotional investment makes it very real
[13:28]  Fawn Starflare: It happens in non-Gor, too, Jen.
[13:28]  Jeniveve Joubert: oh yes I know too many cases where I hear from a sub
[13:28]  Fawn Starflare: I avoid the Gor because of the philiosphical basis, the notion that women can only be salves, that they are unsuited to be anything else, and that men a made to be masters.
[13:29]  Elisandra Foxdale: Gor is itself is a danger in my opinion
[13:29]  ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): so, so far we have community, loved ones, time, the X button, and knowledge to save us
[13:30]  Elisandra Foxdale: A good and sound conclusion.
[13:30]  Jeniveve Joubert: amen to that

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