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[12:10:23] Carla (cyberspy): haha, that is an understatement.
[12:11:04] Fawn Starflare: Carla what complaining about the ways and timings of people wanting to use her girls and she said, "Have you discussed that yet."
[12:11:22] Fawn Starflare: So here we are
[12:11:32] Sugar Baby (bridgette.huntress): oh ok
[12:12:53] Fawn Starflare: Also Carla and had a minor upset of her girl adonna participating in the forniphilia demonstration. So issues of etiquette were definitely in the air.
[12:13:20] Fawn Starflare: And Lexi's blog post that week also addresses similar ISSUES.
[12:14:56] Fawn Starflare: As I see it there are very few universal rules of etiquette in the BDSM world. A lot of behaviors that might be unacceptable in everyday life are often acceptable here.
[12:15:37] Fawn Starflare: Even so, dominants are very possessive of their subs, even when the sub is allowed to roam about to play.
[12:16:05] Fawn Starflare: The few things that seem to be universal are
[12:16:26] Fawn Starflare: * Don't touch another's property with receiving permission.
[12:17:06] Carla (cyberspy): nods
[12:17:35] Carla (cyberspy): I asked quite a few Mistresses and subs alike and they all said same thing
[12:17:38] Fawn Starflare: * Do not discipline another's property, but notify the owner. A slap in response, or some word of upset might be warranted, but correction and retraining is the purview of the owner.
[12:17:53] Ellen Cordeaux nods
[12:18:00] Fawn Starflare: Well, you know this is a general rule in any case.
[12:18:17] Svetlana Sikorsky: yes common sense
[12:18:26] Fawn Starflare: If you walk into someone's home you ought not go touching and picking up things. It's just not polite.
[12:18:58] Fawn Starflare: Yet somehow for me, this bit of knowledge was imparted to me until 14 years ago.
[12:19:29] Svetlana Sikorsky: when i was just a child
[12:19:57] Ellen Cordeaux: I wouldn't appreciate anyone disciplining my sub in any way.
[12:20:00] Fawn Starflare: Manners are a necessary lubricant between people. And it seems they are more important the more likely two people of a society are to take umbrage with one another.
[12:20:29] Fawn Starflare: If you look at warrior societies, they have very explicit rules of interaction, all intended to prevent fights.
[12:20:56] Fawn Starflare: The reasons we shake hands, and the reason we shake right to right, is to prevent fights.
[12:21:15] Fawn Starflare: Shaking hands right-to-right assures you of an empty weapon hand.
[12:21:40] Fawn Starflare: It no longer functions in this way, but it an example of how manners are used to maintain peace.
[12:21:47] Carla (cyberspy): yes that is history
[12:21:57] Svetlana Sikorsky: and touching the third knuckle means your a lodge member
[12:22:12] Fawn Starflare: You see it in warrior societies, For example, Japan prior to the 20th century.
[12:22:44] Fawn Starflare: Oh! I didn't know that, Sveta. I'm sure it differs lodge to lodge.
[12:23:03] Carla (cyberspy): Which lodge?
[12:23:16] Svetlana Sikorsky: masonic
[12:23:21] Fawn Starflare: In BDSM world we have three different type of interaction to concern us.
[12:23:22] Carla (cyberspy): k
[12:23:40] Fawn Starflare: The least specified, the least regimented are interactions between subs.
[12:24:00] Svetlana Sikorsky: oh well where i live in uk the lodge is ancient but thats off topic
[12:25:34] Fawn Starflare: The interactions between a dominant and her property is strictly between them. Interference is rarely welcome, and even a suggestion can be taken amiss by some dominants
[12:26:57] Fawn Starflare: So two most discusses areas interactions between dominants, and interactions between dominants and submissives not their own.
[12:28:40] Fawn Starflare reaches for her train of thought.
[12:28:47] Denise Diesel: depends on how far you let it go, I guess
[12:28:52] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) chuckles
[12:30:06] Fawn Starflare: Ash remarked to me a few weeks ago, most dominants tend to be a bit arrogant. One needs to remember this and apply some 'common courtesy,' though it seems to me it's often not common any more.
[12:30:55] Ellen Cordeaux: I dunno, I think confidence sometimes gets confused with arrogance.
[12:31:08] Carla (cyberspy): It's a fine line
[12:33:10] Svetlana Sikorsky: i think arrogance can be attractive to subs
[12:33:19] Carla (cyberspy): I agree
[12:33:23] Ellen Cordeaux: I def agree with that Svet.
[12:33:50] Denise Diesel: yes, it could as long as not driven too far
[12:34:01] Svetlana Sikorsky: i am sure i am arrogant
[12:34:10] Fawn Starflare: Of course a bit of arrogance is attractive to many submissives. However, it gets in the way of peaceful interactions between dominants.
[12:34:15] Carla (cyberspy): I agree
[12:34:17] Fawn Starflare: The case in point.
[12:34:17] Ellen Cordeaux: I like to think I'm not. But...ya know. :-3
[12:35:31] Svetlana Sikorsky: Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.
Friedrich Nietzsche
[12:35:50] Fawn Starflare: Two weeks ago I asked, moni, adonna, and two others to be part of a demonstration of forniphilia. Her Mistress had wanted to be the one to introduce her to that type of bondage, and I heard about it in a private communication.
[12:35:57] Carla (cyberspy): ty ms Google
[12:36:05] Ellen Cordeaux: (chuckles)
[12:36:16] Fawn Starflare: To prevent a fight I accepted that an error had been made.
[12:36:27] Fawn Starflare: Now this is a difficult point.
[12:37:03] Fawn Starflare: I had asked adonna if she would do this on the assumption that if she were prohibited, she would say so.
[12:37:20] Fawn Starflare: In the absence of the dominant that's the best we can do.
[12:37:54] Carla (cyberspy): She knows now
[12:37:59] Carla (cyberspy): They all do
[12:38:13] Fawn Starflare: Now I know for myself, there's a lot I might not have told my girls, but if there is something I want to surprise them with, I will not have set fences around it.
[12:38:29] Fawn Starflare: So my girl could walk blindly into something I did not want her to do.
[12:38:37] Svetlana Sikorsky: You know what poison i rarely dish out compliments but
[12:38:39] Fawn Starflare: The fault then is mine.
[12:38:48] Svetlana Sikorsky: you look so lovely lately
[12:40:05] Fawn Starflare: As Mistress we must think ahead as to what might happen and how we want our girls to behave. And Creating a set of reasonably memorable rules is a challenge to me, perhaps for many dommes who do not impose great rigidity.
[12:40:06] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) chuckles
[12:40:17] Ellen Cordeaux: What did you mean Fawn? By "set fences around it?"
[12:40:32] Carla (cyberspy): rules
[12:40:35] Fawn Starflare: Rules or limits.
[12:40:38] Ellen Cordeaux: Ah.
[12:40:50] Carla (cyberspy): algorithms
[12:41:01] Fawn Starflare: You see it in Sabbath observances
[12:41:02] Ellen Cordeaux: so you're saying that your girls know what is allowed right up front so no mistakes can be made, right?
[12:41:04] Denise Diesel: those are rules you make up, when you take a sub in. there is always a matter of agreement. for both
[12:41:41] Fawn Starflare: I am say saying, that my girls can avoid most mistakes.
[12:41:44] Ellen Cordeaux: Right ok, I just didn't understand the metaphor for a moment.
[12:42:04] Fawn Starflare: Sorry, it's a Jewish or legal thing.
[12:42:10] Ellen Cordeaux: And I agree. Mine knows exactly what is ok and what isn't.
[12:42:24] Carla (cyberspy): until something pops up you didnt account for
[12:42:43] Ellen Cordeaux: What would that be Carla? For example?
[12:42:45] Fawn Starflare: If you look at Orthodox Jews. Their rules about not working on the Sabbath are more extensive than prescribed in Torah.
[12:42:58] Fawn Starflare: This is to prevent accidental transgressions.
[12:43:02] Ellen Cordeaux: (sorry Fawn I don't know anything about that lol)
[12:43:15] Ellen Cordeaux: <--heathen
[12:43:16] Fawn Starflare: It's like erecting a fence a few feet in from the edge of a cliff.
[12:43:26] Denise Diesel wonders what a jew has to do with the subject
[12:43:47] Fawn Starflare: The phrases setting fences around things.
[12:43:55] Carla (cyberspy): hard to say until it happens. For me once one of the subs played with what she thought was another sub and turned out she was a failed Domme. Who then was very aggressive/nasty to me and tried to get on our sim as well.
[12:44:05] Fawn Starflare: We tell our girls how they may interact with other dommes.
[12:44:13] Ellen Cordeaux: oh my.
[12:44:19] Ellen Cordeaux: I see what you mean then.
[12:45:07] Fawn Starflare: And this is where I know of no rules, and we need to talk about our personal preferences.
[12:46:31] Fawn Starflare: The fence analogy in BDSM are the instructions we give our subs. And when mistakes are made we tend to make the rules a bit stronger, more explicit. That's like moving the fence further away from the caged tigress in the zoo.
[12:46:32] Denise Diesel: my girl wanted do be a cellar slave, very much. We talked about the reason, she said she would be proud. So I asked San, to make her one. I told her to serve 'til a certain border. she likes it very much. In case I'm not around. Fawn can acknowledge that.
[12:47:52] Carla (cyberspy): Sounds reasonable
[12:48:08] Fawn Starflare hugs her toy and kisses it's hood before sending it home to bed
[12:49:31] Fawn Starflare: Looks back a Denise's words.
[12:49:37] Fawn Starflare: Yes, that's exactly it.
[12:51:03] Fawn Starflare: Yes, that's part of the reason for the "Cellar Slave" tag.
[12:51:43] Fawn Starflare: It must be earned, so it is something to be proud of. And it does provide a safe play space for a girl who's Domme is not on very often.
[12:52:01] Denise Diesel: she can sit at your feet, eventually give you a subhug, serve you coffee, but keeps her clothes on ;-)
[12:52:07] Fawn Starflare: I understand that Historically it began differently, but this is how it evolved.
[12:52:20] Svetlana Sikorsky: although tags here are dished out without a thought very often
[12:52:37] Denise Diesel: there are some you have to earn
[12:53:09] Denise Diesel: I know San a long time now. So when I ask her such a favour, she usually agrees with it
[12:53:30] Fawn Starflare: You know this is like generic rules about subs being respectful of dominants.
[12:53:53] Fawn Starflare: But just anybody can say they are a dominant. These are the bane of our existence.
[12:54:17] Fawn Starflare: I say girls must only show limited respect until it is earned in the girl's eyes.
[12:54:39] Sin Dielli (sin.vesta): nods, silently
[12:54:42] Svetlana Sikorsky: agrees with that fawn
[12:54:47] Ellen Cordeaux: I agree with that.
[12:55:08] Denise Diesel: subs should allways be repectful to anyone (so do DOM's actually). It's a role they have accepted. we live in a free world. If you take that role, you act according to it
[12:55:56] Fawn Starflare: Denise, I have to disagree slightly.
[12:56:16] Denise Diesel: that is what discussions are for, Fawn
[12:56:21] Fawn Starflare: You are correct for one we might call a life styler, committed to the role at all times.
[12:57:10] Fawn Starflare: However for a large number of people, the expectation is to be submissive in a specific context and the role does not exist outside that context.
[12:57:35] Hippolyta Palen: *smile* Usually in an erotic context
[12:57:43] Fawn Starflare: Now if I own a girl, I may want more from her, but it I am only scening with her... well I think you see my point.
[12:58:01] Sin Dielli (sin.vesta): i cant be submissive in my professional context
[12:58:04] Denise Diesel: In title, subs are the underdog. In reality, they make the rules
[12:58:15] Fawn Starflare: Frequently, Hippolyta, not always
[12:58:36] Hippolyta Palen: the general take... not always the reality, of course
[12:58:49] Fawn Starflare: No they say what they will agree to. Not the same thing as creating the rules.
[12:59:14] Denise Diesel: that's another way of saying it
[13:00:16] Hippolyta Palen: *smile*
[13:00:21] Carla (cyberspy): yes, they hold the power so to speak
[13:00:22] Fawn Starflare: In a consensual BDSM, both the Domme and the sub say what they will accept and what they won't. Mostly this is settled before a girl is formally given a collar or taken.
[13:00:31] Fawn Starflare: Up to that point there is give and take.
[13:00:51] Fawn Starflare: That becomes restricted after "collaring" but depends on the Domme.
[13:00:54] Denise Diesel: pitty Ada is not in. I gagged her and locked the stuff. Something I usually dislike. But I found out, that in some way, she seems to enjoy it. So I left her wearing the stuff
[13:01:58] Fawn Starflare: Denise, that's why I had left her with the mittens, and later with the hood.
[13:02:10] Fawn Starflare: Some girls need to feel these restrictions.
[13:02:26] Fawn Starflare: In fact, restricting them is more of a reward than a punishment.
[13:03:07] Fawn Starflare: So are there other rules out there that any of you feel strongly about?
[13:03:32] Fawn Starflare: I have my opinions about these things, but I am no expert or paragon.
[13:03:56] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): does clothing vs naked count?
[13:04:06] Fawn Starflare: Sure, tessa.
[13:04:23] Fawn Starflare: Each Domme has a different preference.
[13:04:48] Fawn Starflare: And sometimes that rule is a bit more sophisticated.
[13:05:07] Carla (cyberspy): or mood depending on situation or environmental/sim factors.
[13:05:16] Fawn Starflare: Indeed.
[13:05:16] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): voila
[13:05:38] Ellen Cordeaux: Hm well I feel that general rules of just being a human being apply; be polite, be kind, etc. And then anything more is between Domme and sub.
[13:05:56] Ellen Cordeaux: And as Carla says, situational.
[13:06:01] Fawn Starflare: I give my girls the right to wear cloths. But toy must look a bit slutty. None may deliberately look like domes (hoo, that is so subjective!)
[13:06:06] Hippolyta Palen: Be true to yourself...
[13:06:48] Ellen Cordeaux: Mine is a little fashionista. I love that about her and enjoy her outfits.
[13:06:51] Denise Diesel: for now, take a look at Tessa
[13:07:01] Svetlana Sikorsky: is there such a thing as a bad mistress
[13:07:03] Denise Diesel: I love her clothing
[13:07:27] Denise Diesel: does she have to look subby, to be one?
[13:07:34] Ellen Cordeaux: Not at all.
[13:07:41] Ellen Cordeaux: Sub or Domme isn't about what you wear.
[13:07:55] Fawn Starflare: Tessa is being permitted clothing not just silks or nakedness.
[13:07:55] Denise Diesel: that's what I wanted to tell
[13:07:56] Fawn Starflare: Cool.
[13:07:58] Ellen Cordeaux: Though clothing does make a statement.
[13:08:07] Hippolyta Palen: attitude matters more
[13:08:37] Fawn Starflare: Of course clothing does not make a domme, but it can convey an attitude.
[13:08:41] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): this clothing is for chrisa and naked is for mistress :)
[13:08:49] Fawn Starflare: Ah!
[13:09:06] Ellen Cordeaux: Clothing or lack of it makes a statement and can be adjusted for the mood/place..etc.
[13:09:07] Denise Diesel: so if Mistress comes in, you go change?
[13:09:11] Fawn Starflare: Your are lucky she permits that distinction, tessa.
[13:09:15] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): and in between is the whirlwind that is my mind
[13:09:16] Carla (cyberspy): I like my girls to dress nice, and I spend quite a bit on them.
[13:09:24] Ellen Cordeaux: me too Carla.
[13:09:38] Ellen Cordeaux: My girl shops more than I do. *laugh
[13:09:39] Carla (cyberspy): When they came to me, they didnt own clothes.
[13:09:55] Denise Diesel: I only have one girl at this time ( and I love it) and we go shopping a lot
[13:10:07] Ellen Cordeaux: At home though...I like her in harnesses and such. Lolita wear also.
[13:10:17] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): :)
[13:10:23] Carla (cyberspy): Well, I like harnesses :)
[13:10:27] Fawn Starflare smiles
[13:10:49] Fawn Starflare: So do I.
[13:11:19] Denise Diesel: as long as they are devoted, I love them all
[13:11:22] Fawn Starflare: There are times when I want those straps to be oh, sooooo tight!
[13:11:29] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): so what are your opinions on who pays for what?
[13:11:31] Ellen Cordeaux: grins
[13:11:50] Ellen Cordeaux: Hm if it's something special I want to see her in, I buy it.
[13:11:57] Fawn Starflare nods
[13:12:11] Fawn Starflare: I think that's very individual.
[13:12:32] Ellen Cordeaux: Not a 'sugar mamma' by any means, but I do spoil.
[13:12:38] Ellen Cordeaux: When it's earned.
[13:12:52] Fawn Starflare: Some dominants have the sub pay for everything including the dominants wardrobe. And I've seen it just the opposite and everything in between.
[13:13:03] Carla (cyberspy): If I know they bought something I pay them for it. I provide everything. Now if its a gift for me, then they can pay for it.
[13:13:14] Fawn Starflare: But I love giving my girls gifts. And that's the one common thread, I think.
[13:13:30] Ellen Cordeaux: I adore spoiling them.
[13:13:37] Denise Diesel: so do I
[13:13:46] Ellen Cordeaux: When it's earned. lol. gotta get that in there.
[13:13:58] Poison Fishnet: What girl doesn't love getting spoiled! it adds to the dynamic too i think.
[13:14:04] Fawn Starflare: I was going to add that for you both.
[13:14:06] ღ Ţєşşa Romanov ღ (tessaromanov): it's tricky with some of the essentials like cuffs and chastity belts...those things are spensive
[13:14:28] Ellen Cordeaux: I provide those Tessa. That goes under "needs". In my opinion.
[13:14:29] Fawn Starflare: I've shelled out for more girls than I can name.
[13:15:09] Fawn Starflare: SL is is different from RL.
[13:15:13] Denise Diesel: Tessa, in the early days (of sl) a Miss used to collar a sub, with a collar she bought herself
[13:15:24] Carla (cyberspy): or Pony gear That's about $L4000 per pony
[13:15:25] Fawn Starflare: Or made herself.
[13:15:48] Ellen Cordeaux: Yah. I think collar, pony gear...cuffs, collar...I feel that is my responsibility.
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