Discussion on the responsibilities inherent in being a Mistress. Guides for Domme, switch, and sub. Lead by Miss Fawn.
“… the values we adopt will be the ones the next generation will live by. I do not know if anyone can decide for you. But no one can relieve you of the responsibility for what you say, in whatever form. And the better you are at it, the more beautiful or powerful your voice, the greater burden upon you to use it with wisdom and a great deal of care.”
“The greatest power sometimes comes in not doing a thing. It is so easy to use a skill simply because you have it, and not look two … three steps ahead to what it will cause. People listen to you, Miss ---. You can move our emotions and make us reconsider all kinds of beliefs. That is very clever. It is not always wise ….”
Caroline in
Half Moon Street
a novel by
Anne Perry
© 2000 by Anne Perry
“To whom much is given, much is required.”
[12:12] Fawn Starflare: I love to read and was reading the novel Half Moon Street by Anne Perry, and there were some words I felt compelled to write do down.
[12:12] Fawn Starflare: They have to do with the nature of power.
[12:12] Fawn Starflare: The nature of leadership.
[12:13] Fawn Starflare: And for me this is intimately connected to what it is to be a Mistress or to serve one.
[12:13] Fawn Starflare: We've all been there, "Oh she's not a 'real' Mistress"
[12:15] Mermaid Stormcrow nods thoughtfully
[12:15] Fawn Starflare: I think we all have a sense that if you want more than sexy games with one partner playfully ordering the other about
[12:15] Fawn Starflare: Then we are looking for something.
[12:16] Fawn Starflare: My thoughts are about what it means for me, in my domme roll, but like everything else, that becomes a guide to the submissive as well.
[12:16] Fawn Starflare: SO let me start with something not so obvious. Power and it's exercise.
[12:17] Fawn Starflare: Have you ever run into a so called dominant who believes that to be empowered s/he must willfully exercise that power?
[12:17] Ellen Cordeaux: *chuckles* More than once.
[12:17] ღ Chrisa Romanov ღ (chrisa.zifer) nods
[12:18] Lauren (blondegirl19): yes
[12:18] Fawn Starflare: Is tying someone up, "because I can," our definition of a leader, powerful person, or dom/me?
[12:19] Fawn Starflare: I have the sense, the answer in this room is that no, this is not a strong person."
[12:19] ღ Chrisa Romanov ღ (chrisa.zifer): no Miss...but sounds nice
[12:19] Fawn Starflare giggles @chrissa "you can be bound and gagged for the remainder!
[12:19] Ellen Cordeaux: smiles
[12:19] ღ Chrisa Romanov ღ (chrisa.zifer): eeep
[12:19] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov) pats my girl's hand
[12:20] Fawn Starflare: Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is to refrain from action.
[12:20] Fawn Starflare: Let me quote Miss Perry's words, said in a different context, but meaning ful to me, and I think most of us.
[12:21] Fawn Starflare:
“… the values we adopt will be the ones the next generation will live by. I do not know if anyone can decide for you. But no one can relieve you of the responsibility for what you say, in whatever form. And the better you are at it, the more beautiful or powerful your voice, the greater burden upon you to use it with wisdom and a great deal of care.”
“The greatest power sometimes comes in not doing a thing. It is so easy to use a skill simply because you have it, and not look two … three steps ahead to what it will cause. People listen to you, Miss ---. You can move our emotions and make us reconsider all kinds of beliefs. That is very clever. It is not always wise ….”
[12:22] Fawn Starflare: Caroline in
Half Moon Street
a novel by
Anne Perry
© 2000 by Anne Perry
[12:22] Fawn Starflare gives you all time to read
[12:23] Fawn Starflare: Is everyone ready?
[12:23] Ellen Cordeaux nods
[12:23] ღ Chrisa Romanov ღ (chrisa.zifer): yes Ma'am
[12:24] Fawn Starflare: She has said it beautifully. I know it applies to me. For what every reason, Great Spirit gave me an Eloquent voice and a bit of Charisma.
[12:25] Fawn Starflare: So it speaks very loudly to me about the care I need to give when I set my hand to something.
[12:25] Svetlana Sikorsky: where as me i never have much to say
[12:25] Fawn Starflare: But it applies to all of us dommes.
[12:26] Mermaid Stormcrow listens
[12:26] Fawn Starflare: Our girls are taking a risk when they entrust us not just with their bodies, but their mind's, their spirits, their being.
[12:27] Fawn Starflare: The responsibility is not so heavy when we sit and flirt and play games her.
[12:28] Mermaid Stormcrow nods
[12:28] Fawn Starflare: I like to keep the room playful and have, unbidden, locked girst, touched, them, etc, knowing that subs want that experience of the unexpected, of being out of control and dealing with the unwonted touch.
[12:28] Fawn Starflare: Still, I do it with a bit of trepidation because there will be a day when someone finds it offensive.
[12:29] Svetlana Sikorsky: Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive
[12:30] Fawn Starflare: The deeper we and out girls want to go, the more control we want to take or they want to give, the heavier a responsibility we have to carry as Dommes.
[12:30] Fawn Starflare: I owned a girl for 2 years in RL. It was like being a parrent. I was controlling everything in her life.
[12:31] ღ Chrisa Romanov ღ (chrisa.zifer) smiles dreamily
[12:31] Fawn Starflare: like raising a child you become responsible not just for her dress, behavior
[12:32] Fawn Starflare: But you care for the health of her mind, body, spiritual and emotional health.
[12:33] Fawn Starflare: Between playing casually. Enjoying some whipping and spank and Total Power Exchange (TPE) There
[12:33] Fawn Starflare: There are varying degrees of responsibility for a domme to carry. For a Sub...
[12:34] Fawn Starflare: whether you consciously realize it, you are looking for somone who takes it as a responsibility, not merely as license.
[12:34] Fawn Starflare: I've always hear that, "To whom much is given, much is required."
[12:35] Fawn Starflare: And our girls give us a lot.
[12:35] Fawn Starflare: And that
[12:35] Fawn Starflare: That concludes my prepared remarks. I think there is ample room for an interesting discussion here.
[12:36] ღ Chrisa Romanov ღ (chrisa.zifer): i never thought of that last part...ty Miss Fawn
[12:37] Fawn Starflare: We look for all sorts of things in a domme. My girl want a sadisit, but wake make her feel safe is the knowledge that while in scene I don't give a fuck what she likes, she knows that behind that is self disciple and deep caring.
[12:38] Fawn Starflare: We play an odd came.
[12:38] Fawn Starflare: Subs want to feel totally control yet know that ultimately they are safe.
[12:39] Fawn Starflare: Let me ask the other dommes: do you also feel this duality?
[12:39] Mermaid Stormcrow reflects on the conversation
[12:40] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): i have found it strange that the Domme serves the sub, yet the sub wants to serve the Domme
[12:40] Ellen Cordeaux: What specifically do you mean by duality? Responsibility vs. Control?
[12:40] Fawn Starflare: In part, Ellen. Tessa, you words... Yes we often hear it said that the sub is in control, but it's not really true.
[12:41] Fawn Starflare: What we really mean is that most of us desire that a domme at least be mindful of a sub's likes and dislikes and has the ability to temper what she does.
[12:42] Fawn Starflare: Tess, you do need and desire control. You hope hope it is mindful of your likes and limits.
[12:43] Ellen Cordeaux: I think the idea of control is fluid. The sub has quite a bit of control, otherwise she is a slave. In my opinion. :))
[12:43] Mermaid Stormcrow: I agree Ellen.
[12:44] Fawn Starflare: What sort of control? Does she control the scene, or it boundaries?
[12:45] Ellen Cordeaux: Hmmm....the concern and care for our sub's ultimate well being exerts control over the Domme in a general way, no?
[12:45] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): voila
[12:45] Fawn Starflare: Exactly.
[12:45] Ellen Cordeaux: But that is coming from the Domme herself, internally.
[12:45] Ellen Cordeaux: Not the sub.
[12:45] Fawn Starflare: Yes!
[12:46] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): it's like a paradox tho
[12:46] Ellen Cordeaux: It is! ㋡
[12:46] Fawn Starflare: Yes. It's something I've pondered over 40 years.
[12:46] Fawn Starflare: We play off each other.
[12:46] Fawn Starflare: In the world of consentual play, as Ellen says it is fluid.
[12:47] Mermaid Stormcrow nods in agreement.
[12:47] Fawn Starflare: Born to Serve, how did you feel last time and today when I grabbed you restraints without first speaking to you?
[12:48] borntoserve (adavenomiss) thinks
[12:48] Fawn Starflare: I know I was waiting on tenterhooks to see how she would respond.
[12:48] borntoserve (adavenomiss): A little surprised ... nervous ... but also excited
[12:48] Fawn Starflare: You trusted that we would somehow keep it safe?
[12:48] borntoserve (adavenomiss): Yes
[12:49] Ellen Cordeaux: Oh I think keeping a sub off balances and guessing (not all the time but often) Is the ultimate in control...and fun for me frankly. :P
[12:49] Fawn Starflare smiles
[12:49] Fawn Starflare: Indeed
[12:49] Fawn Starflare: Mermaid has said to me that I hold back here.
[12:49] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): so the trust comes first then you throw them off balance?
[12:49] Ellen Cordeaux: Always the trust first Tessa. Always. ㋡
[12:50] Fawn Starflare: It's really that I am engaging in a more form of play where domme and sub push back and respond to each other.
[12:50] Lauren (blondegirl19): something came up, have to go, hugs all
[12:50] Ellen Cordeaux: Bye bye Lauren ㋡
[12:50] Mermaid Stormcrow looks around, I did?! Smiles
[12:50] Fawn Starflare: It's not what I do in the TPE context of my dungeon.
[12:50] Ellen Cordeaux: nodding
[12:51] Fawn Starflare: You did, sweetie. I told you, your words and impressions are important to me. That I am learning from everyone regardless of experience.
[12:51] borntoserve (adavenomiss) shivers, wondering what that section involves
[12:51] Fawn Starflare: This room has given me the chance to be playful, yet still seem "safe."
[12:53] Fawn Starflare: The girls who I call my own, "Calinthia constant reassures me she cares because she KNOWS (yes, caps) that behind the persona of sadist I care very, very deeply"
[12:53] Fawn Starflare: I know, my greatest fear is an error in judgment.
[12:54] Fawn Starflare: To hurt someone in body mind or spirit.
[12:54] Mermaid Stormcrow nods in understanding. Yes, I agree Fawn, about feeling safe here to explore myself, and my limits while getting to know others and their limits.
[12:54] Ellen Cordeaux nods in agreement.
[12:54] Fawn Starflare: I think, ... I would hazard ... we also teach the new girls what to look for in a domme.
[12:55] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): matching types and styles
[12:55] Fawn Starflare nods again.
[12:55] Ellen Cordeaux: So many different styles and such; finding a good match can be tricky. Especially in a virtual space.
[12:56] Fawn Starflare: Yes. Clubs like ours give people a place to be playful and a learn what it is they are most looking for.
[12:56] Fawn Starflare: Oh, dear, toy, It's midnight for you.
[12:56] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): yes, Goddess
[12:57] Fawn Starflare: You are dismissed for bed my precious.
[12:57] Fawn Starflare: You are dismissed, my darling.
[12:57] Mermaid Stormcrow: the subs also teach me every day.
[12:57] Mermaid Stormcrow: thank you toy for being with us today.
[12:57] borntoserve (adavenomiss): goodnight Toy, sweet dreams!
[12:57] Ellen Cordeaux nods 'Yes, me too Mermaid. I've learned so much about how to be a better Domme from submissives."
[12:58] Fawn Starflare: Toy's presence, something I have said here before...
[12:58] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) smiles
[12:58] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury): thank you!
[12:58] Fawn Starflare: There is much said about the trust a sub puts in a domme.
[12:58] Fawn Starflare: Very little is said about the responsibilities of the sub, and the trust of the domme in her sub.
[12:59] Ellen Cordeaux: I wonder why that is?
[12:59] Fawn Starflare: You see the primary thing the sub has to give us is her reponse to what we do.
[12:59] Fawn Starflare: And we have to rely on the belief that that response is honest and complete so we can take our next action.
[13:00] Fawn Starflare: My style of play is definitely a function of how a girl responds.
[13:00] Fawn Starflare: And if I cannot trust her responses, cannot trust me what she is showing me of her self,
[13:00] Fawn Starflare: then if I am responsible, I suddenly have to become very cautious
[13:01] Fawn Starflare: Toy helps me grow by proving she truly meant it when she said I could do anything and she would like it.
[13:01] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) beams
[13:01] Fawn Starflare: Took me months to believe that.
[13:01] Ellen Cordeaux: Yah I am very reluctant to even hear that. *laughs
[13:02] Ellen Cordeaux: even though it is true with some subs.
[13:04] Ellen Cordeaux glances at the subs. "you all are quiet".
[13:04] Ellen Cordeaux: smiles
[13:05] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): it's like a tight rope... giving and trusting
[13:05] Ellen Cordeaux: How so Tessa?
[13:05] fluttertgal: be well all and have fun
[13:06] Ellen Cordeaux: nite nite flutter ㋡
[13:06] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): i don't know what i need or want, and i want to trust... but it's like wearing a life jacket when you get in a boat to go out to sea
[13:06] Fawn Starflare: Take care, flutter. Your presence graces our rooms.
[13:06] Ellen Cordeaux: Surely you know what your wants are, no?
[13:07] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): not if i haven't experienced them
[13:07] Fawn Starflare: Good answer
[13:07] Fawn Starflare: And very true
[13:08] Ellen Cordeaux: Hm. But don't we all have an idea, even if it's vague, of what our kinks are? What we are drawn to?
[13:08] Fawn Starflare: Each time we try a new game, scenario, we are trying something new. Maybe it will suit us, maybe not.
[13:08] Ellen Cordeaux: True. Where you referring to scening Tessa?
[13:09] ღ Chrisa Romanov ღ (chrisa.zifer): im always worried to say mine because then my owner will not do certain things she likes
[13:09] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): yes definitely and really anything else
[13:09] Ellen Cordeaux nods
[13:09] Fawn Starflare grins at chrissa, "The submissive's dilemma."
[13:09] Ellen Cordeaux: I've always encouraged my subs to be completely open about likes, dislikes...wants.
[13:10] Ellen Cordeaux: That doesn't mean they will get it, but i need to be informed.
[13:10] ღ Chrisa Romanov ღ (chrisa.zifer): oh yes...i've been dealing with that for ages now Miss
[13:10] Fawn Starflare: The truth being, your most rewarding relationship is when you havend over to your Mistress the things she needs to tease you, to disapoint, or reward you.
[13:11] borntoserve (adavenomiss) smiles and nods thoughtfully
[13:11] A-Toy-Dragon (dragony.darkfury) nuzzles to Goddess and poofs off
[13:11] Fawn Starflare notices toy finally leave
[13:12] Fawn Starflare: Ellen said it differently than I, but it amounts to the same thing,
[13:13] Fawn Starflare: the more we know about our subs, the better we can be Mistres to them.
[13:13] Fawn Starflare: And it's not just about the D/s, or bondage, or service.
[13:13] Ellen Cordeaux: Not at all. *nods and agrees
[13:14] Fawn Starflare: I am looking for an intimate relationship. Looking for my true companion.
[13:14] Ellen Cordeaux: (incoming Poppy)
[13:14] Fawn Starflare: I know that D/s and the rest of BDSM must be a part of that, but in the end, it's a love affair.
[13:20] Fawn Starflare: I think I was amplify a bit on tessa feeling like she's not sure of what she wants of likes.
[13:20] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov) nods
[13:21] Ellen Cordeaux: Do you think Fawn, that we as Dommes need to guide a sub into self-discovery?
[13:21] Fawn Starflare: That's actually very healthy. We decided to going this, try it in SL or RL, because we have *A* fantasy in mind. Actual participation shows us what we truly want and desire.
[13:21] Fawn Starflare: One aspect of stories is for the Domme, to make the girl be a puppy, or a foot stool or something she thinks she will hate.
[13:22] Fawn Starflare: And then it turns out it makes her happy.
[13:22] Fawn Starflare: But as Dommes, we are not so prescient.
[13:22] Fawn Starflare: We are feeling our wa around as well.
[13:22] Fawn Starflare: The way I describe myself these days is like this.
[13:23] Fawn Starflare: I love to make girls come, making them happy, and feeling good bout themselves.
[13:23] Sasha Kristan: :)
[13:23] Fawn Starflare: I am willing to RP most anything to get there.
[13:23] Fawn Starflare: The Dome and sub or slave are in collaboration.
[13:24] Ellen Cordeaux nods
[13:24] Fawn Starflare: The sub sets the initial course of the journey, but after that her input is minimal as the domme takes the role of captain and navigator.
[13:24] Fawn Starflare: And I think this is the real sense of the simplistice, "the sub is in control."
[13:25] Fawn Starflare: I will get her where she wants to be on my terms.
[13:25] Fawn Starflare: ....
[13:25] Fawn Starflare listens
[13:25] Ellen Cordeaux: Sometimes a scene will fall flat, no matter how well you negotiate. Then you two can have a nice laugh and move on. Which is nice.
[13:25] Fawn Starflare nods "done that"
[13:26] Fawn Starflare: Lexi, on her Blog, as a quote reminding it that it takes one kind of strength to lead, and another kind of strength to follow.
[13:27] Fawn Starflare: Being a sub or slave is not for a weakling.
[13:27] Mermaid Stormcrow nods.
[13:27] Ellen Cordeaux: Very true.
[13:27] Mermaid Stormcrow: I find as I'm new, I need to take little breaks.
[13:27] Mermaid Stormcrow: Today is one of those days. Domme drop.
[13:27] Ellen Cordeaux: Submission comes from a place of strength.
[13:27] Fawn Starflare: Oh, my
[13:27] Ellen Cordeaux: Oh...been there Mermaid.
[13:27] Ellen Cordeaux: nods understandingly
[13:28] Mermaid Stormcrow: I am trying to learn harder and faster than I can absorb and then I turn it inwards.
[13:28] Fawn Starflare whispers, "hhhsssssttttt, I'll tell you a secret"
[13:28] Mermaid Stormcrow: I can only be where I am.
[13:28] Mermaid Stormcrow: ooo...a secret?!
[13:28] Mermaid Stormcrow leans in
[13:29] Fawn Starflare: Yes, there a plenty of days when all I want is to sit in my chair and have my girls at my feet, have their closeness and love and not demand anything else of them.
[13:29] borntoserve (adavenomiss) smiles and nods inside her confining hood
[13:29] Mermaid Stormcrow nods. And not have any demands on me.
[13:29] Fawn Starflare: I think my girls have come to enjoy these interludes, too.
[13:29] Fawn Starflare: It is more reflective of a real life.
[13:30] Ellen Cordeaux: I'm sure they do. Sometimes it's just about the companionship.
[13:30] Mermaid Stormcrow nods again...I feel like it's a cloak of "dommeness" and it can feel heavy and oppressive at times.
[13:30] Mermaid Stormcrow: and when I mentioned it to flutter, she said she experiences the same with subness.
[13:30] Fawn Starflare: Amen, sister!
[13:31] Mermaid Stormcrow: I just want to sit with others as people/humans and not always be in a domme role/persona.
[13:31] Ellen Cordeaux: lols
[13:32] Ellen Cordeaux: Well you can't live it 24/7. Sometimes a girl just want to shop.
[13:32] Ellen Cordeaux: ;-)
[13:32] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov) giggles
[13:32] Sasha Kristan: :P
[13:32] Mermaid Stormcrow: And I'm not sure how to do that sometimes. To have others see the real, vulnerable, inadequate, learning, messy, me.
[13:32] Mermaid Stormcrow: Oh, no...another shopper. ;)
[13:32] Ellen Cordeaux: YAY!
[13:32] Fawn Starflare: Hehehehe
[13:32] Fawn Starflare: guilty
[13:32] Ellen Cordeaux: Totes lol
[13:33] KittyKat Maidstone: who is the shopaholic ?
[13:33] Ellen Cordeaux: You know Mermaid, subs love it when they see us as a bit vulnerable. We are Human after all, no?
[13:33] Fawn Starflare: Mer, eventually, you accept that you are still Mistress even then, but you have let go of the notion, it means you must be scening or controlling.
[13:33] Ellen Cordeaux: <--shops till she drops
[13:33] KittyKat Maidstone: hehe
[13:33] KittyKat Maidstone: drops or drips ?
[13:33] KittyKat Maidstone: or both
[13:33] Fawn Starflare: Your girls are your followers, and they are happy to be onleash even while you zone out.
[13:34] Ellen Cordeaux: Yes and once the control is there, it is always. Even when we're tired, or grumpy or having PMS or whatever.
[13:34] Fawn Starflare: My girls have always surprised me.
[13:34] Mermaid Stormcrow listens
[13:34] Fawn Starflare: They will force me off line if I am too tired.
[13:34] Ellen Cordeaux: Though I'm still always mindful not to take my grumpy out on my sub. Not cool.
[13:34] Fawn Starflare: They know when I need a nuzzle or simply quiet companionship.
[13:35] Ellen Cordeaux: Yes Fawn, and that is a loving sub.
[13:35] Fawn Starflare: And it is fulfilling for them to give that
[13:35] Fawn Starflare: It took me a long time of painful growth and learning. Finally I have most of that dream.
[13:35] Mermaid Stormcrow: I would also like to hear from the subs about their feelings about this?
[13:36] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): i think this is why D/s requires so much time together
[13:37] Mermaid Stormcrow: how so tessa?
[13:37] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): a subbie wants that domming time
[13:38] Ellen Cordeaux: Yes like any relationship time is key. But quality is more important sometimes that quantity, no?
[13:38] Fawn Starflare: Mermaid, you should chat with toy sometime (when she has earned her IMs back)
[13:38] Mermaid Stormcrow nods to Fawn.
[13:38] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): and if we don't get it, it's hard for us to just cuddle, we feel guilty
[13:38] Ellen Cordeaux: Of course a regular schedule is necessary Tessa, I agree 100% with you there.
[13:38] Fawn Starflare nods
[13:39] Mermaid Stormcrow: you feel guilty for not being controlled?
[13:39] Ellen Cordeaux: ?
[13:39] Sasha Kristan: not guilt miss but perhaps an emptiness a sadness
[13:40] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): for not serving
[13:40] Ellen Cordeaux: Could you feel resentment as well? Because that would be called for too in my opinion.
[13:40] Mermaid Stormcrow: ah...but when a sub is with me during my down moments, my vulnerable times, she is serving me.
[13:40] Sasha Kristan: our purpose in life is to please
[13:40] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): it just doesn't feel D/s :)
[13:40] Mermaid Stormcrow: too vanilla?
[13:41] Ellen Cordeaux: Right Mermaid...no not at all!
[13:41] Mermaid Stormcrow: that makes me sad if that's too vanilla
[13:41] Fawn Starflare: Tessa, suppose that I make it clear, that your serve, for the moment, is to kneel quietly, be beautiful, and be seen, be an ornament in my space.
[13:41] Mermaid Stormcrow: makes me wonder if then the lifestyle is for me.
[13:41] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): o i love to be an ornament
[13:41] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): that is serving
[13:42] Ellen Cordeaux: Mermaid...there are all types of Dommes and you'll find your flow and your niche. ;-) Take it easy on yourself.
[13:42] Mermaid Stormcrow: you may be serving as my friend in that moment. Serving as kindness, patience, and non demanding of something from me I am unable to give in that moment.
[13:42] Ellen Cordeaux: There's tons of vanilla time in D/s too. ㋡
[13:42] Fawn Starflare: And we have many kinds of Mistress here. Though we are one of the more relaxed communities.
[13:42] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): that's why i started by saying time is required
[13:43] ღ Ţєşşa ღ (tessaromanov): if it starts to feel all vanilla, it's no fun for a sub
[13:43] Fawn Starflare: True
[13:44] Ellen Cordeaux: "serve" is a big umbrella with lots of things underneath I think.
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